Diesel powered 337

[Skymaster337B]

From what I can see on their web site it looks like a Diesel engine will be more expensive than a regular engine. But will the overhaul time be about the same?

[CO_Skymaster]

Does anyone know, when Thule-River talked about installing SMA diesels in a Skymasters, did they have to perform major modifications to the cowling like SMA had to do with the 182? Is there enough cooling in the Skymaster to dissipate the heat?

Karl

[WebMaster]

The front engine on a skymaster was a test bed for Continental. You may have read that Continental was sold to the Chinese. One of thing that was the impetus was additional funding for their diesel engine development.

Thule River/Super Skyrockets, looked at the SMA Diesel for the Skymaster. It was intended to increase their market for modifications. I had the good fortune to be at Osh when Marianne ( Mary Ann ?? ) the owner of Super Skyrockets spoke to the Skymaster group. It was a meeting put together by Kevin McKenzie. In any event, the SMA engine conversion was intended for the normally aspirated Skymasters. That's because the certified ceiling for the engine was 10.5K. The project never got off the ground for several reasons. First, SMA was slow to produce and respond. The Skymaster conversion was not tops on their list. Second, SMA never produced an engine designed for pusher engine installations. I spoke at length with the folks at Super Skyrocket, about the time I needed a new rear engine, and that was their response. Interestingly enough, Continental does not differentiate between tractor engine and pusher engines. Third, Super Skyrockets was looking for additional markets for their business (the Riley Conversions were not selling real well), additional conversions they could do. They did a considerable amount of work with a variety of "New Engine Technology" companies, and I think they simply got worn out trying to come up with something that was certified, or certifiable. They have since closed their doors, and it's not likely that anyone else will take up the mantle to install SMA engines in a Skymaster.

Delta Hawk, on their website, had a date for certification. That date has come and gone. Super Skyrockets looked at the Delta Hawk engine, and in fact commissioned a study for engine mounts. There was a really cool solid model of the front engine mount for the Delta Hawk engine, on the Super Skyrocket site, for a while. It had the NASTRAN load analysis associated with it. Really cool looking.

[CO_Skymaster]

Thanks for the information Larry.

There were a couple issues I didn't like about the SMA diesels on the C182. 1. The extensive cowl modifications 2. I saw a video where they were demonstrating it in flight and they couldn't pull power all the way to idle incase of a flame out. Didn't like the sound of that, what if I need to go around or make a missed approach, 3. I like the idea of FADEC, but still don't like the idea of battery back up. What if the entire electrical system fails (I've had it happen at night) and your over water. The magneto system would allow you to continue to fly until you exhaust your fuel.

I was hoping that deltahawk would have the certified engines going by now, but I'm no longer holding my breath about it. I don't know how the sale of TCM to Technify will affect us in the long term, but I'm not feeling too doomed and gloomed about it either.

Karl

[WebMaster]

I don't know where they are getting the engines, but apparently TFHAWK is serious about a diesel Skymaster. I say I don't know, because Delta Hawk Engines is still in the testing phase. It could be that TF is working with them. In any event, I have learned that they are going to produce, and soon, what they call the "Golden Hawk" conversion. Pricing is expected to be about $340K, including new props and all mods. Some of the mods make a lot of sense. They say they will have engine block heaters and fuel heat. Heating the fuel is a good thing, because Jet fuel tends to gel, and attract moisture. Those jets who have fuel heaters don't need Prist added to the fuel. Since Prist is expensive, the fuel heaters are a good thing. They also say they are going to have dual electrical systems, another good thing. If you don't have the Gear Door STC, they want to to put it on. I have mixed feelings about that, but a lot of people have them. I remember Super Skyrockets saying they did not approve, because the wheels could collect ice. I know that when we cleaned Jerry's plane, his wheels tended to collect OIL. New engines would solve that issue. They also talk about electrical heated wing de-ice. I have seen this, and I have seen this removed. I think it would be up to you.

They will also put on the Horton STOL kit, and spoilers. Both good things to have. I have flown Herb's with the Horton, and it really helps on take off and landing. Jerry has spoilers, and those are great for getting down. There will be cowling mods, of course, and an MVP engine analyzer.

The price seems steep, but I don't think it is. When I flew Owen's SkyMonster, he was talking $350K for that mod, and that didn't include all the things that TFHAWK is talking about.

Changing engines is a big undertaking, because not only do you have the cost of the engines, you also need a newly designed engine mount, and new cowlings.

Being able to run Jet A should appeal to a lot of folks, especially when you consider that in some parts of the world, 100LL is virtually unattainable. When Paul and Mary flew up the Amazon, then needed to buy 100LL in 55 gallon drums, and have them delivered to their planned fuel stop. If they were burning Jet A, it would have been readily available.

When I get more information, I'll pass it along.

[WebMaster]

I have learned that as part of the certification process for the Delta Hawk engine, they are flying the engine in their Skymaster.

They also anticipate having certification this year.

[Morne]

Originally Posted by larry bowdish

I don't know where they are getting the engines, but apparently TFHAWK is serious about a diesel Skymaster. I say I don't know, because Delta Hawk Engines is still in the testing phase. It could be that TF is working with them.

According to their website:

Engines: Delta Hawk Diesel (2 each)

Some of their modifications are not applicable to civilian use (like armoring the crew seats). Not to mention the tip tanks that some folks just don't want.

Still, great to see SOMEBODY will be doing it!

I kind of wonder what they'd charge just to replace the engines/mounts/props?

[hharney]

Here is what I have learned:

You can expect the Golden Hawk conversion to be in the range of $340,000, based on using an existing customer-owned Skymaster that has no major defects and is moderately low time (i.e., like 2,500 to 3,500 TTAF) since zero-timing it is an option to add and above the base price. That includes a wide range of modifications, so it isn't just the engines that you get.

(Of note, this is not far from the Riley Rocket II pricing which they say "starts at $250,000" but some say in reality is more like $300,000 once you add in the equivalent modifications package that the Golden Hawk includes as standard.)

The standard Golden Hawk modifications package includes the following in the base price: new Hartzell propellers that have been custom-engineered and designed for the aircraft and engine; electrical strip tape anti-icing on wing leading edges and props; the gear door STC; dual electrical systems; an updated electrically actuated hydraulic system; fuel heat and engine block heat (for cold weather and high altitudes); modified cowlings, wrap-around front windshield without the central support; Horton STOL; an MVP-50P avionics system that is customized for the aircraft and engines; plus wing spoilers to allow the plane to descend more rapidly, and more.

All Golden Hawk aircraft will undergo an extensive 101-point inspection program, including the wing spar inspection that has been a widely discussed issue in the forum -- so this is a good way to get the inspection done and a major transformational upgrade at the same time.

Performance is essentially the same or better than the military version, which gives (based on the TFHawk.com website): more than 12 hours endurance on just 166 gallons of either Jet A, Russian TS-1 or diesel truck fuel from a regular truck stop, or any mixture thereof with no changes to engine settings; normal operating altitudes of up to 25,000 feet; no loss of power/manifold pressure up to FL185; and climb rates that are out of this world.

The plane can fly non-stop from Kitty Hawk to San Diego.

The company will offer the conversion in both non-pressurized and pressurized versions, though they state that the PRESSURIZED version may be preferred because of the typical high altitude operating profiles. Of note, this means that for the first time in Skymaster history, the heavier pressurized version of the plane (the P337) is superior! With the diesel conversion, there is sufficient power in the engines so that the extra weight of the P isn't a problem. Thus the Golden Hawk converts the old dog of a pressurized Skymaster into a little high altitude sportscar, giving the passengers extra comfort without having to wear masks or tube-based O2 in the plane. This will inject some life back into the Skymaster market, no doubt.


They are looking for some qualifying aircraft to convert..........don't forget the checkbook.