Skymaster valuations

[Roger]

Thanks for your responses on your maintenance. However I think the question we have here is what is the cost of "ownership" of a good Skymaster, not necessarily what is the cost of any given annual or years maintenance.

If I'm not mistaken, Herb's bird is essentially "perfect", and has been maintaned and operated in a manner that has placed it in a position to not be expensive to maintain. Conversely a Skymaster that has sat out on the ramp unused and un-maintained for the past 3 years, with close to runout engines, will be extremely expensive to bring to the condition of your plane.

Of course this is a complete guess, but I would imagine you value your plane in the $130g- range, vs a runout which would be worth in the $30g range.

If so, then the premis that one could buy a decent 337 in the $30,000 range, put a few thousand in it, and fly off into the sunset is still incorrect. You may get away with it by buying a $60,000 plane, and maintain it to a bare minimum, but it certainly wouldn't be something that many of us would be interested in flying.

The idea is that you pay one way or the other. Time (ie the year 2010 vs 1990) is only relevant as related to the condition of the plane. This because when the price of a new plastic plane is $500,000, the value of a real airplane stays relatively constant, as related to it's condition (not what year we currently find ourselves in).

So I stand by my premis that you can pay now, or you can pay later. But you are not going to get out of paying in the $80g-$100g range to own a Skymaster that is worth flying.

[hharney]

My intentions of the above post was to point out the difference in maintenance shops based on feedback from Ed and others. I agree with Roger that buying a ramp queen at a low price is, as stated in my message, the easy part of ownership. Maintaining it will be the challenge. I have an advantage with my plane because I have owned it for 34 years. I know every screw and rivet. But that doesn't mean that I can get a break on a high priced shop for an annual. Some shops just have higher costs.

My plane is nowhere near perfect. Thanks for the compliment but it is still a 42 year old Cessna that has had some passionate care. The blue book says $78,000.00 is the value and before the interior and paint it was $60,000.00. I spent well in excess of $50K for all the refurbish last year and will no way see a return. But then I didn't do the refurbish to make money. I did it to enjoy a nice airplane that I know intimately. I felt I could justify the cost of the refurbish because of the sentimental value the family has in this aircraft.

I also own a Twin Commanche. I have found this to be similar to the Skymaster in operating costs. The aircraft is a simpler airframe given that Piper made only 3 models and they all were almost identical in build. The service manual for the TwinCo serves all models and the parts are almost identical for all twins and single Commanche's. I have found that I can achieve annual costs very similar to the Skymaster using the same system.

However you look at it you don't buy these aircraft for an investment. They are worse than home ownership. It is a constant maintenance program to keep these 42 year old planes safely in the air. Don't think that you can just buy one of these type aircraft for a low price and maintain like a 172. It just won't work. I owned a 172 also. Speaking from experience here, as many do from this board. It's a serious venture, not to be taken lightly.

[stratobee]

It seems I've found a quick way of financing that Riley Rocket now - just get a quick STC for new cowl flap motors and sell them for $200, done deal. Millionaire within the week..

[Ernie Martin]

I don't disagree with some of the key points made here, that you need to start with (and pay for) a sound aircraft and that you can't skimp on maintenance, but some of the numbers posted above seem very high and I believe there are ways of flying a reliable aircraft while spending considerably less money.

Let me shock most of you with this: I have been recording the costs of the annual inspections since 2005 and they were $3,540, $2,770, $1,745, $950 and $2,025. That averages $2,200 per year -- and it includes biennial transponder tests!

More on this in a moment (including an image of my actual handwritten records and how I achieve it) but let me talk reliability. I fly mostly over water, typically Florida to the Bahamas, with my family. Several families who also own aircraft will routinely ask me to take their children and grandchildren on my flights ("Ernie, you got a seat on your Thursday flight?"), and yet will not let these same children aboard other private twins, including twins where I sometimes serve as their consultant and I know they spend $10,000 - $20,000 each annual. Why? Because these families trust the reliability of my Skymaster, which I have been flying to the islands for over a decade. In short, I may cut costs but not corners.

There is an entire thread on maintenance costs at http://www.337skymaster.com/messages...read.php?t=764 where members were asked by the then Administrator to share their costs. The last message on the first page is mine and explains how I achieve these numbers. In part: we do most of the work on the ramp (not an FBO); I do some of the work, including all the AD compliance paperwork (I'm an aerospace engineer but not an A&P) and will be hands-on during the entire annual; I try to find apprentice A&Ps to do much of the labor intensive work (depaneling and in my case sanding and painting corrosion because the plane sits outside); I aggressively search for parts (details are in that message); but most importantly because I have an A&P who knows 337s intimitately, has been doing my annuals for 10 years, is a friend who I pamper and essentially supervises the labor and limits himself to the actual inspections (compression check, flap cables, etc.).

One way of buying a sound aircraft at lower cost is to find one without the latest avionics. If it has reliable radios and transponder, if the engines, props, landing gear and airframe have been meticulously maintained -- with the records and ADs to show it, and after a rigorous pre-purchase inspection -- and if you find the owner HAVING to sell, then that's your aircraft. This takes advantage of the marvelous hand-held avionics now on the market.

One note, however, now in the opposite direction. Most of the numbers you see in this thread, including mine, don't have engine and prop reserves. If you fly 100 hours a year like I do, I figure $2,000 per year in reserves. Also, I occasionally have maintenance between the annual inspections; I don't keep a record of this but I believe it is under $2,000 per year. So add reserves and miscellaneous maintenances and I have annual maintenance costs of about $6,000 per year.

I realize that my situation is atypical. But if you can find an A&P who works on the ramp and knows and likes to work on Skymasters, and if you start with a sound aircraft (my current 1973 337G was maintained by the Ohio State University FBO before I purchased it), and you are willing to do some of the work, then your maintenance costs should be under $10,000 annually, including reserves.

Now add other costs which should be easy to compute (hangar/tie-down, fuel, etc.) and you can get a fairly accurate picture of what's ahead.

Ernie

[Paul Sharp]

I agree with Roger and also with Ernie. You are going to spend around $80K-100K either now or later. And if that doesn't suit your budget you should look for something else to do for fun.

My worst annual was $11K+, the next worst $8K+, and the average is around $4-5K. I've O/H'd an engine recently @ $35,000, and over the years added IFR GPS for $10K, repainted @ $10K, new boots @ $20K, new heater @ $5K, etc. I've owned the plane for over 10 years. If someone buys it there are lotsof things they won't have to do because I've kept it up, but I don't intend to give it to up for any $40K. If they find one for $30-40K, they'll be putting a bunch of money into it.

You can take your pick: pay now or later. Bad mouth the asking prices if you want, but you aren't likely to escape reality.

[stratobee]

With all due respect, I think some of you are still a little bit reluctant to accept just how bad the times are. For all aircraft, not just for Skymasters.

Let's look at some real world examples:

http://greatvehicles.chooseyouritem..../12163778.html

Halftime engines. $39.000. On the market for 208 days.

http://greatvehicles.chooseyouritem..../11046720.html

More than 2/3's left on engines, $49.500, on the market for 327 days.

The list goes on ad nauseum on http://www.globalplanesearch.com/view/all/All.htm

All I'm saying is that obviously the buyers are not finding them rightly priced, or they would not be sitting on the shelf this long. So the notion that you pay either up front or later is not entirely true. What you spend on them to keep them up is not something you'll get back in todays market.

[Roger]

Strato...

With all due respect, you really do not seem to have a clue. Your first example has NO LOGS. If you have ever owned an airplane, you would know what that means, and if not, then it's not even worth talking about.

Your second example is listed as a 1965G. Well that's real nice, except there is no such thing as a 1965G. So I would suggest that once again you are attemptng to compare something that doesn't exist.

I can't even find the third example, but I would imagine it's not much different than the first two.

I think it's great that you are looking, but you seem to be living in the twighlight zone as to cost, operations and maintenance, which is exactally what this web-board is all about.

I personally am done responding to this dream sequence in a bad movie. The next thing you know, Bobby will wake up in the shower.