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  #1  
Unread 09-11-19, 01:56 PM
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YankeeClipper YankeeClipper is offline
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Avemco Quote

As if on cue from the most recent post about insurance, I have a potentially useful caveat about Avemco, and possibly the current state of aviation insurance in general.

I just received a hypothetical quote from the above named, assuming that I had:
  • 200 hours in make/model
  • A normally aspirated model
  • Only four seats
  • IFR certification
  • Multi-engine
  • One year policy-ownership without claims

I have no prior incidents/accidents.

The quote was for $4000. The excuse was that multi-engine is expensive. I asked to double-check the input and the output of the above. Same number. That is literally almost triple the same quote last year, and double the same quote for an early-turbo. FWIW, every insurance professional I've spoken with in the last week has vaguley corroborated this, saying that GA insurance has undergone substantial transformation in the last 12 months.

I sincerely hope that this is more of an indication that novice pilots need not apply with Avemco, as I wouldn't consider aircraft ownership at that kind of price-point. Added to the other costs (from which I necessarily receive tangible benefit) I would no longer view the GA ownership experience as having adequate ROI. That's a highly subjective judgement of course, but I'm confident that many other would-be new-comers to GA will feel the same.

I'll follow up when I have something from the same broker I used last year.
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  #2  
Unread 09-11-19, 03:14 PM
Multimotor Multimotor is offline
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Strange, I just got a quote from Avemco for a P model that is $900 less than the quote I got last year. I don't have a significant change in hours since then. The quote was based on a hull value of $100,000.

I have no hours in M/M and all they want is an annual training course from one of their approved trainers. I mentioned that I had been in the altitude chamber, but the rep didn't say that was a requirement.

The quote on a normally aspirated model was hundreds cheaper than my 310, again with $100,000 hull. Maybe there is something about centerline thrust being good for insurance rates.

3300 hours, 1300 multi, ATP, CFI, hangared, no claims, repeat customer.
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  #3  
Unread 09-11-19, 04:10 PM
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YankeeClipper YankeeClipper is offline
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FWIW, I've heard from two parties that CLT is a small advantage.

Looking your personal numbers there starts to confirm my suspicion that these changes really apply to novice pilots (read, "me"). There was an article in Flying Mag earlier this year about this: https://www.flyingmag.com/aviation-i...ce-is-changing. It's level of clarity is perhaps a bit 'IMC', but it alludes to this in any case.
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  #4  
Unread 09-11-19, 04:30 PM
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YankeeClipper YankeeClipper is offline
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Just received a quote from the same agent that last year put me at around 3500 as a novice pilot, and then 2500 as an MEL and IFR pilot with 200 hours in type. The quote was $7000 and an estimated 4000 respectively. They said the market is dramatically different than even 6 months ago. I've just been knocked out of twin aviation altogether.

Going to a C182, was somehow estimated at $800. I'm speechless. Guess it was nice chatting with you all over the past few years ...
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  #5  
Unread 09-11-19, 10:22 PM
Multimotor Multimotor is offline
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Sorry to hear that!

That's bad news for both of us, since if the insurance market tightens, my pool of potential buyers shrinks.
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  #6  
Unread 09-17-19, 04:09 PM
B2C2 B2C2 is offline
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FWIW I just bound insurance today through AOPA. last year it was $1942, this year its $2261, so a roughly 16% increase with no change in coverage. My airplane is a T337D, non P. Hull value $93K, $1M liability. I have about 400 hours in type. When I first started my insurance was about $5K. I have occasionally checked Avemco pricing and found them to be un-competitive with the AOPA quote, but I didn't do it this year.
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  #7  
Unread 09-20-19, 03:24 PM
etv100Fly etv100Fly is offline
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Insurance 337C non T

Greetings ! My coverage for lats year, no hull and Central America Coverage $750.00. Paid $30,000 for my bird and fly her down to Nicaragua. Still going strong. She is expendable should I loose and engine as 30K for a rebuild is a death sentence for her. I have 400 hours or so left in her. That's a few more years. I figure. Capt Leo
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  #8  
Unread 09-24-19, 02:21 AM
wslade2 wslade2 is offline
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Insurance put me at about $4000 with my spring of this year 337E normally aspirated purchase. I had no time in 337 and will need 25 hrs dual with an experienced instructor or one that has received sign off / time from another 337 instructor. I was lucky to find an older instructor (doing biannuals of former owner) who would educate my local guy. My existing insurer would not provide coverage because I am keeping my single and they won't insure two aircraft-one owner.

For a while, part of the expense of ownership is going to be other people paid to fly with me. But I consider that appropriate in the current world. Many fields are requiring monitoring of newbies for increasing periods of time versus shorter training of yester-year due to legal/insurance reasons.
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  #9  
Unread 09-24-19, 12:14 PM
dan1000 dan1000 is offline
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Insurance is always highly personal, since people's tolerance to various kinds of risk (and the size of the target on their backs) is an individual thing.

Airika Ackermann at Sutton James obtained the following for me this year, from underwriter Allianz Global Aviation. I'm a 1,000 hour commercial/multi/IFR airplane pilot with a CE500 type rating, and also a private/VFR helicopter pilot. I include this info so that those with more or less experience can have it as reference. When I first bought my P337, I had zero time in type. At the time of this year's renewal, I had 72 hours in type. The underwriter required 3 hours of training with a pilot who had 500+ hours in type.

Liability only (no hull): $100k per-passenger limit, $1m per occurrence: $1,065/yr.

Raising the per-passenger to $250k would have added about $600/yr.

Raising the per occurrence above $1m was "not available", though I likely would have bought it if it was.

Adding hull would have added about $2700/yr, which simply didn't seem worth it to me. I can withstand the financial loss of the hull, therefore didn't need to buy the insurance.

Bottom line: For me, $89/mo.

Dan

PS: Now if I could only figure out how to buy 100LL at $2.50/usg instead of double that (or more). Thankfully, my airplane is a dream to maintain, since the previous owner and I have been extremely proactive on maintenance. What I love about the P337 is that if you buy the right one, it's a comfortable, capable, fast, reliable, safe machine, that doesn't cost that much to buy or operate. Why the rest of the world seems to have overlooked this model is beyond my ability to comprehend. At 100h/yr and $5/usg (if I'm lucky), I spend about $12k - $15k on 100LL. This dominates my cost of flying. Compared to fuel, all the other expenses (parking, maintenance, insurance, depreciation, training, "cost of money", registration/taxes) are far less significant.
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  #10  
Unread 09-16-21, 05:22 PM
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YankeeClipper YankeeClipper is offline
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Thought I'd add an update to this saga, which perhaps should have been titled: GA Insurance: The Demise of Private Aircraft Ownership.

I have called numerous insurers and agents this year, and cannot get insurance for my '69D. Not at any price, not at any level. Since I don't have my multi rating yet, they won't insure me for anything in motion. They also won't insure me for non-motion. So I have a very expensive bullseye sitting on the tarmac waiting for the next hurricane to come along, and no recourse.

Incidentally, the northeast continues to have very limited hangar availability, and even then, hurricanes eat hangars too.

Over the past 3-4 years, I've watched my 20 year dream slowly fade into two conclusions:

1) insurers run this country (if not all of them). What other entity can discriminate so boldly and with impunity? Ask your neighborhood, 20-something male, who's looking to insure his first car what I mean...

2) I have entered a hobby far too late, and beyond it's prime. Twin engine Ownership is all but relegated to the truly wealthy, and those who got in a long time ago. Our family income has significantly outperformed our highest hopes, yet with only one child and no other hobbies, debts, drug habits, etc...we are clinging to this dream by few remaining hairs.
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  #11  
Unread 09-16-21, 06:50 PM
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You speak the truth. Those who can afford to pay cash for their airplanes are the same guys that can afford to self-insure (and many I know do).

The average guy who has to get a loan is forced to get insurance, so if he can't get it, no airplane for him!

I guess you own yours if it doesn't have insurance on it. I would put it into an LLC or corporation, self insure it, and spend the money you saved on insurance to make the plane safer.

Its odd to me that they won't issue not-in-motion hull coverage. I've know a few pilots who got not-in-motion policies because the plane was going to be down for quite some time. It makes no sense to me.
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  #12  
Unread 09-16-21, 06:53 PM
dan1000 dan1000 is offline
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I would like to acknowledge that what youíre saying is that itís very difficult to find insurance at your current level of pilot license qualification. That must be very frustrating. Iím wondering if there might be a solution, if youíre willing to change the order in which you do things. In particular Iím wondering whether it might be worthwhile getting your multi rating first, before seeking insurance. Fortunately, from what I remember, getting a multi rating is actually pretty simple, not too many hours of instruction. Not too much demanded of you. Hopefully, if you try that, youíll find that a few more of the doors to insurance are open. At least I hope so.

Dan
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  #13  
Unread 09-16-21, 08:35 PM
GAdams GAdams is offline
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Self Insurance Option

My question is for those that self insure, how or what do you provide to the landlord for the hangar lease insurance requirement?
Everytime I rent a hangar I must provide a policy naming the airport as additional insured. How do you get around that if self insured?
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  #14  
Unread 09-17-21, 12:11 AM
wslade2 wslade2 is offline
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Ditto what dan1000 says. Twin rating made a major difference. In fact back when I put contract on my 337 I started twin training concurrently as prior queries revealed no insurance or exorbitant insurance premiums for a proposed 337 ownership without it. I got a quote as high as $9000 without twin rating. You can be ready in low number of hours (single digits depending).

Regarding hangars and insurance: hangar space has been hard to find. I own two airplanes and lease two hangar spaces. One in major metropolitan area and the other space 60 miles away in the sticks on old air force field. Metropolitan hangar, wood framed with metal roof and sides and single sixty watt lightbulb absolutely had to have copies of insurance with limits set by municipality, separate municipality lawyer prepared subrogation language, investigation of the LLC holding my plane, authentication with the state about LLC standing and all legal docs filed, operating agreement, personal information on members (me), verification of tax standing, aircraft registration (other owners report getting a notice to vacate if late on renewing-they track you) and other ownership documents (such as bill of sale), municipality right for spontaneous inspection, copies of keys, list of do's and don'ts (in particular what to do with oil), wattage of appliances, size of micro refrigerator, municipality lawyer signoff (that alone took 60 days)...need I go on.

Hangar in the sticks was a handshake deal. I might be the only one with insurance in there.

BTW-remote airport has small annual airshow, hosts car shows and other similar activities, brings Air National Guard in to show off their equipment and skills. Metropolitan airport does nothing.

Last edited by wslade2 : 09-17-21 at 01:13 AM.
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  #15  
Unread 09-17-21, 01:32 AM
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YankeeClipper YankeeClipper is offline
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Not only agree with the advice--it's (God forgive me the pun) in motion. I'm going to train and test for multi--with wheels down for now (training wheels?)--in my very own Delta, soon as the engine is back in. Might as well add time in type while I'm at it. CLT limitation be damned.

What really stung was that some turned down non-motion because of my low hours. Apparently inexperienced pilots can start hurricanes from their living rooms. Others, it should be noted, just weren't interested in small sized policies like that. Thought it didn't matter...
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