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Install Pirep with Stark Avionics GTN750, GLD88, GTX330ES
Although this wasn't in my skymaster, it's the same type of equipment and could happen to anyone
I have a 74 Cessna 414, took it in for a panel upgrade in September of 2014. After much deliberation, I decided to try Stark Avionics in GA. They had great prices and John Stark was very responsive thru email and seemed knowledgeable and friendly. My Previous panel: Garmin 430, 530W, Avidyne EX500, GTX327, KC76C transponder 2, RDR161, PMA8000bt, STEC55x, Collins PN101 system, Portable 796W New Panel: Keep 530W, remove 430, remove EX500, remove KC76C, remove RDR151. Move GTX 327 to transponder 2 and remote mount it. Add GTN 750, add GTX 330ES, add GLD-88D. Configure GTN750 to control both transponders on-screen. Configure GLD88 to display on both GTN750 and 530W. Configure GTN750 to crossfill to 530W. Install Flightstream 210. Install i-pad dock in panel. Made an agreement with Stark on the price, and detailed every single thing I wanted in the signed agreement. It also included that Stark would notify me if there were any changes to the configuration or price. Dropped the plane off on September 11th, was anticipated to be done on October 3rd. I purchased my commercial flight home from Atlanta with a return ticket on October 3rd. They were fairly quiet during the installation period. One big hiccup was Garmin's failure to deliver the flightstream on time, so we cancelled that. Stark Avionics did not have the plane ready on Oct 3rd so I had to eat that commercial plane ticket and we both agreed that October 7th would be acceptable so I rebooked. I intentionally booked for the 10th instead to give them another 2 extra days. I understand that things don't always happen on time. Two days before pickup, they told me that something "quit" in my autopilot and that it had to be shipped out to STEC for repair. The day before the 10th I confirmed that the plane would be ready, they said yes. So I travelled out there on the 10th, landing in Atlanta around 1pm. It takes over 2 hours to get there, so I finally arrived at their shop around 4pm. When I arrived, the plane was on a battery charger and they told me that my battery was dead and having problems charging. Also, they seemed to be in a rush to get me out since it was a Friday night. We walked thru all of the paperwork, they gave me a very brief demo of the new system, and sent me on my way. I had to start the plane while being hooked up to a battery charger since the battery was dead. I was hoping it would charge enough to get me home. After the jump, things went downhill. The volt meter read 0 volts and the alternators were out of phase. I let it run for a while hoping the battery would charge and things would get better. I taxied around the airport for a short period to test out the ground systems and see if the problem would correct itself. Within a short period of time I completely lost the left alternator and the volt meter still showed 0. I decided to abort the flight home for obvious reasons. I called John Stark on his cell phone because they had already packed up and left for the evening. He told me that he was just an avionics guy and I would need to get a mechanic for my electrical issues. He was more interested in preserving his Friday night than coming back to the airport to help me. I taxied to the airport FBO, they called out their mechanic for "overtime" to help me out. An hour later the mechanic arrived and we towed the plane to his hanger. He pulled the battery out (it was hot) and said it needed to be replaced. He also believed the left alternator was now bad. Being now 8pm on a Friday night at Colombus GA, there was no battery anywhere nearby. My choices were to take a 2 hour bus ride back to Atlanta and fly home to deal with this later, or find a battery. I rented a car and drove 120 miles to Aircraft Spruce. Luckily they were opened the next day on a Saturday AM. I arrived there at 8am, bought the battery, and drive 2 hours back to the airport. The mechanic met me there, installed the battery, and tested everything out. The left alternator still would not come online but I decided to go since it was VFR in daylight. The cost of the battery and "overtime" for 6 hours of the mechanic's time was over $1600. I departed and continued testing the new system that was installed. Loved the 750 and GLD-88, but had more than a few issues. Here was the squak list I came up with on my 4 hour flight home • Pressurization does not work at all • My PN101 display is unstable, wiggling back and fourth 1-2 degrees constantly • 530W does not crossfill from 750 • no GLD88 info on the 530 • transponder 1-2 hardwire switch inop • autopilot inop (they sent it out for repair) • left alternator dead • prop sync light and right aux tank light intermittent • GTN750 mic way too loud (hurts your ears) I made it home and shared the results with Stark. They were immediately defensive and basically said they just do avionics swaps and none of these were their fault. I wasn't looking to blame them for anything, but a lot of their work is incomplete. They told me that they did not wire the GLD-88 to the 530W because they said it was illegal. Yet they never told me this before pickup of the aircraft. I got Trek from Garmin to confirm it is not illegal and Garmin supports a GLD-88 being connected to a 530W and 750. They also didn't wire the 530W and 750 together to crossfill because they forgot. They also forgot to remove the transponder 1-2 switch. I made what I thought was a very generous offer. I would pay to fly one of their techs out to my airfield to fix up these few squaks. After my nightmare trip down there I was not going to fly back down there and leave the plane or be at their mercy anymore. Plus a round trip fuel cost was easily $1600. They refused, saying they don't make housecalls. Things were getting more hostile as I pointed out issues with the system. I didn't want to escalate because they still had my autopilot. When it finally came back from STEC with a $2600 repair bill, they claimed I needed to pay 100% of that since it was upgraded while it was there. I tried to negotiate since they did admit that it was working and broke during their upgrade, but they refused and continued to have an attitude. Knowing that they could hold me ransom for the autopilot, I paid it. The only refund I got from them was them charging me for the flightstream unit and installation that was never delivered. They didn't want to give that back because they said they did all of the install work, but they also told me they didn't pre-wire a connector for the flightstream since they didn't have one. So I'm not exactly sure what flightstream pre-installation work they actually did. In a nutshell, Stark Avionionics failed to meet the agreement they signed for services provided. I think they could have easily worked with me to resolve these and I would have been reasonable and even could have been a repeat customer. But their disinterest in helping me when I was stranded on their airfield that Friday night, refusal send someone up (at my expense) to correct open issues, and hostile responses to both me and Trek at Garmin made it clear to me that they had no interest in working with me to resolve open issues. Since I'm the one paying to fix their issues, I only have two issues of recourse. I can take them to small claims court and tell everyone I know about my negative experience to prevent others from going thru the same. If you are considering them, I would suggest going somewhere else because the final cost for me dealing with Stark was easily $6K+ higher by the time I fixed all the issues. As for my panel, I feel like I selected the right equipment and I do love it. I am still getting used to the GTN750, but I love the GLD-88 and traffic I now have. Last edited by John Stark : 04-24-16 at 04:08 PM. 
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#2
12-30-14, 04:42 PM
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I'm happy you're happy with your panel. Your experience really REALLY makes me sad! I truly enjoy flying but I have to admit, the older I get (and admittedly, "crustier") the more I wonder if the headaches associated with maintaining (and upgrading) airplanes is worth it. General Aviation is not easy, that's for sure. It really is difficult to tell who knows what they are doing, and who doesn't until it's too late. UGH!
Good Luck! Ed P.S. Had a great day of flying my SkyMaster yesterday with two of my flying buddies (good thing)! First time in a month due to schedule conflicts, work, Chicago winter Wx (bad thing)! Do I sound conflicted? Sorry for my little rant! Thanks for sharing your story. Last edited by edasmus : 12-30-14 at 04:45 PM. Reason: additional thought
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#3
12-31-14, 12:46 AM
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Hate to say it Bryan but...........did you give Mayday in GRR are chance? I really like those guys, they are by far not the cheapest but good honest folks run the program there. Maybe next time or maybe they can help you with your clean up on the issues you still have. Give Tim or Ed a call and tell them I suggested you call...
__________________
Herb R Harney 1968 337C Flying the same Skymaster for 47 years
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#4
04-19-15, 10:21 PM
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Yea, Herb you are right. I thought the substantial savings was worth it, but I guess not. I have a follow-up planned with Mayday to check everything out and do some additional work.
I had a problem with a long cross country flight last week, I believe the avionics relay was sticking and preventing all of the garmin stuff from powering up. We were trying to troubleshoot so we could make the 900 mile trip home and I emailed Stark Avionics just asking where the relay was and if they concurred with my thoughts. Service was as I experienced before. Here was their reply: Quote:
Last edited by bjherron : 04-19-15 at 10:25 PM.
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#5
04-21-15, 09:22 AM
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That is amazing, who do these guys think they are? Sounds like your bridge is already burned, a professional company would want to resolve this issue but I guess that explains the type of company they are........really sad
__________________
Herb R Harney 1968 337C Flying the same Skymaster for 47 years
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#6
05-20-15, 12:41 AM
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Wrongfully accused
My name is John Stark. I am the owner of Stark Avionics in Columbus, GA. This year we celebrate 20 years in business. Up until this post, you could not find a negative comment anywhere on the internet! To make it 20 years without a single negative comment is unheard of. You will always have at least a couple customers that you can't please, no matter how hard you try. Below is the truth concerning Brian Herron, and his installation.
The major issues with this installation were as follows: 1. Prior to picking up the airplane, we notified Mr. Herron that connecting a GTN-750 and a GNS-530W to a GDL-88 to display traffic and weather is not legal, and not in keeping with the STC and therefore FAA regulations. That isn't to say that it won't work, it just means to do so would jeopardize my repair station with the FAA. Mr.Herron disagreed with this, and so did Garmin. I didn't want to leave this unresolved so I contacted my local FAA inspector and he said that I was correct, it was not in the installation manual, and therefore, would not be covered under the STC. That was not enough for me. I had to prove beyond any doubt that this was not something that could be done legally, so I contacted the Atlanta FSDO management team to get the ultimate definitive answer from up as high as it goes. I talked to David M. Dunn Regional Specialist- Avionics RAMPS Coordinator Southern Region Technical Branch- ASO230 Who talked to the person at the highest level David Crew Sr. FTE, ACE-116A (404) 474-5563 David Crew agreed that this was not only breaking the STC, but could possibly be dangerous. He then went on about why this could potentially be dangerous. After getting this definitive answer, the Garmin rep suggested that Mr. Herron go and get this done elsewhere, knowing that the FAA had ruled it illegal, at least according to the FAA that I have to answer to. To do this 2 wire, simple interface is not worth losing my license over. This fueled Mr. Herron to find us at fault for everything in the airplane. I understand the frustration, but I just can’t let the FAA take my repair station license, so that one customer gets a feature that he wants in a secondary GPS/nav/com. I agreed to do this before taking on the job, not realizing that my FAA would consider it illegal. I’m sorry that I couldn’t help my customer for this squawk. 2. The next problem was that the GTN-750 and the GNS-530W did not have the crossfill wires connected. This was a valid complaint and an oversight on the part of Stark Avionics. Mr. Herron had every right to be upset with this. Mr. Herron was allotted $1500 for this error, which I think is more than fair. We completely wired his Flight Stream 210 (minus the connector that never showed up from Garmin). It would have taken less than an hour to stick the wires we ran into a connector and mount the Flight Stream. This work had significant value and was removed from the invoice to compensate my customer. If you disagree, please call your local shop and ask them how much it would be to wire a Flight Stream 210 in a Cessna 414. 3. Mr. Herron decided to pick up his airplane after working hours on a Friday. Because of this, he was in a big hurry and made some VERY critical mistakes. We used external power to operate the airplanes electrical system the entire time that we had the aircraft. We do this so the battery will not be low when the customer picks up the airplane. As it turns out, a cell was bad in the battery and caused the battery voltage to be less than 24 volts, even when fully charged. I asked him to contact the local mechanic before going any further, but he refused to take the time, and asked us to jump start the airplane. The jump start worked, but because of the bad cell in the battery, it caused the electrical system many problems. As Mr. Herron said, he contacted me and I couldn’t help him. However, I own an avionics shop. We are not authorized to do anything with batteries, alternators, etc. He made our inability to serve him in this capacity, into an unwillingness to serve him. That just wasn’t the case. 4. Finally, there is the pressurization issue. I have requested on multiple occasions for Mr. Herron to present me with that bill. I want to talk to the shop that worked on it. All we did was mount an antenna in accordance with a DER drawing. I seriously doubt that this was the issue, but I would be happy to pay for the work, if the maintenance shop that fixed the pressurization issue, agrees that it was something that Stark Avionics broke. The fact that he is unwilling to give out that information should tell you all you need to know. Instead of taking responsibility for rushing, and using bad judgment, he asked that we compensate him for, not only the electrical problems resulting from his bad decision, but problems with the pressurization and a slew of other issues that, despite his claims, were probably bad before coming to our shop. The airplane was in very bad shape when we got it. It was not maintained well and had more problems than I would care to even list here. Please judge Stark Avionics on 20 years in business, having an impeccable reputation, other than what you see here in this forum. John Stark Stark Avionics 5290E ARMOUR RD. COLUMBUS METRO AIRPORT COLUMBUS, GA 31909 PH 706-321-1008 FAX 706-324-3770 Web page http://starkavionics.com
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#7
05-20-15, 09:38 AM
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Welcome to the forum John.
Quote:
Quote:
The credit was primarily because you charged me for a Flightstream 210 that was never delivered or installed. Your definition of "pre-wired" was to run a power and data wire into the avionics bay but not actually install the connectors. There were numerous other things that happened that had a huge cost to me (dead STEC autopilot, no pressurization, transponder switch wired wrong, dead battery, no crossfill) that $1500 doesn't even scratch the surface of. I didn't even want the money, I wanted what I paid for. My offer was to pay the flight and travel expenses to have your guy come up and fix the wiring issues, but you declined. I'm sure most people could understand that I wasn't willing to fly the plane back and risk another bad departure experience after the first one. Quote:
Bottom line is we agreed on the Friday afternoon pickup time. If you did not want to be inconvenienced in a Friday, you should have not agreed to it. I am a small business owner and if someone wants to give me $30K in business, I would be there on a Saturday night for them. Only when I arrived was I informed that the battery wasn't holding a charge. The plane was also not fully finished, a tech was still working on the panel when I pulled in. You suggested leaving the charger on it that was already connected while your tech was working on the panel, so we tried it. It didn't work, and by the time I taxied back you were already gone and unwilling to return to the airfield. Only then, from your cell phone, did you say that you're only an avionics guy and that I should call a field mechanic to fix my problem. This did not rise to the level of service that I expected. And truthfully, the pickup experience is the moment really where everything went south. Quote:
I'll be happy to send you the work order and bill in exchange for payment if you are serious. However I don't recall this being offered during the issue so I'm skeptical. Quote:
I don't think claiming I flew in on a airplane that was not well maintained (that I fly > 100 hours a year all-weather) is really taking a step forward. Everyone knows GA planes are old, and working thru issues that can occur during maintenance is something that any pilot/owner/mechanic has to deal with every day. For me it's how those issues get handled that determines the experience. Last edited by bjherron : 05-20-15 at 10:17 AM.
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#8
05-21-15, 05:09 PM
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What an not nice situation for both of you guys. I have seen and heard of plenty of avionics installs don't go well or at least have some glitches big and/or small, and I have also had a few to fix on my acft from several different avionics shops. Had plenty of work on my panel (attached picture), and the only bug free installs I ever had were at Aero Teknic at CYHU and I would recommend them to any Skymaster owner. Lots of small things eg. for the GTN 750/650 they corrected that there are supposed to be separate cct. breakers for each of the Nav and Com parts of the units, which is safer and also helps out when there is an low voltage problem. There would be some extra paperwork for N-numbered aircraft but on the other hand with the $ exchange rate the shop rate is excellent in USD.
Last edited by John Stark : 04-24-16 at 04:08 PM.
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#9
04-24-16, 04:07 PM
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Install Pirep with Stark Avionics GTN750, GLD88, GTX330ES
Brian Herron wrote:
Here's the pressurization bill. I believe I read somewhere in another forum that you were willing to reimburse me? the main problem was: Damaged heater hose (in avionics bay) Caused a huge pressurization leak thru the avionics area because the heater hose was crushed. Once that was fixed all of the other things were very minor. Not much else to say here. I'm not going to start calling anyone dishonest, I think you are hugely overstepping in some attempt to discredit this whole pilot report. I got what I considered to be poor service, and my recommendation to fellow pilots is to look somewhere else. Brian This thread could have been dismissed after the first entry, but I had nothing concrete to prove that this attack was a act of extortion. I was told by Brian Herron that if I didn't pay him for $2,000 for pressurization repairs, that he would destroy my reputation over the web. I really didn't think that he would do it. Also, in 21 years of business I only have 4 customers that are mad at me. That's 1 for every 5 years! How could I know that 3 of them would see this post and jump in. Then I thought it would be easy to just sue him and then post the results. Turns out that I have went through several lawyers and ultimately they all say that the case is solid, but not worth their time. So why am I writing this? Well it's time that the arm chair quarter backs that are reading this thread to suit up, and actually find out if this is real. Believe it or not, not all aircraft owners are honest, some are actually trying to "get one over" on someone to get some free work done on their airplanes. No more "he said, she said". After waiting nearly a year, Brian Herron finally posted his pressurization bill that he claimed I was responsible for. Now I know why he wanted me to pay for it without any documentation. I called Solo Aviation, that did the pressurization repairs and asked for the technician that worked on Brian Herron's airplane. They put me through to Kyle. Kyle told me that the claim was completely the opposite as Brain Herron reported on this thread. The crushed tube was not crushed, it was an illegal scat tube that had come loose. He said it took him less than 2 minutes to find, and if it were the proper hose, he would have slipped it back on and not charged him anything. Turns out that the airplane had been in their shop before for pressurization problems and the list of items on the sheet that Brian posted on this threat, didn't cover half of it. Of all the items, the part that I was accused of accounted for none of the $2,000. And that of course assumes that we knocked the hose loose and it didn't come loose because it was the wrong hose on there in the first place. So now, all of you reading this thread and siding with Brian Herron about the great injustice he endured, Call Solo Aviation 734-994-6651 and talk to Kyle. Also ask him about what kind of person Brian Herron is. Then please post it to this thread. You will find this thread completely turn around. Now what about Tim Doreen? You could start with calling Aspen Avionics. You see, I was told by my sale rep that he threatened to sue Aspen avionics. Haha, now that says a lot. But don't take my word for it. Call Aspen Avionics at 888-992-7736. My sales rep, also named Kyle, told me that he demanded to talk to the president of the company, and then went on to threaten him with a law suit if he didn't get some discount that he felt he deserved. Kyle is working at another company now, but they probably can give you his phone number. In any case, I bet the president of Aspen Avionics remembers Tim Doreen. He was determined to get a bunch of his older avionics repaired for free after our installation. Calling his local avionics shop will probably all you need to do to find out what kind of person he really is. It's all about the money. If you want the truth, find out by a third party that is not directly involved, you will usually find out that it is someone trying to get something for nothing. It seams to be all the rage these days. You now have irrefutable proof that this thread was started by a dishonest person that was trying to get $2,000 worth of work for free. In his words "Caused a huge pressurization leak thru the avionics area because the heater hose was crushed. Once that was fixed all of the other things were very minor." Now call Solo Aviation and find out the truth. John Stark Stark Avionics
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