low priced skymaster....

[JLemons]

Found a Skymaster over on Skymaster Center website for sale. Asking price....$29,500?!?!?! Of course, the engines are high time but I can't believe the asking price. What would you do if you were looking to buy a Skymaster and the price was this low?

James

[WebMaster]

You came to the right place.

First things first. This plane is out of annual. So I would do a pre-buy, by an objective mechanic. It would pay you to have someone you know look at it. Look most particularly at the engines, props.
Look at the exterior. A good paint job can hide a multitude of sins.

I would suspect that you will have to replace the front engine fairly soon, and the rear engine perhaps as well.

Send me an email, I have some suggestions for you.
ljb@safetyservicesinc.com

[Skymaster337B]

That's about the right price for a basic 337 with hight time engines. If it had the STOL kit you'd have to pay more. But it might be a good deal if the engines are running well. But make sure the fuel/oil/hydraulic lines are the new type otherwise you're asking for trouble if one of those lines starts to leak. I own a 337 that I bought for a steal with engines at TBO; but I saw on the web site that those engines are over 700 hours past TBO -- maybe not a big deal if it had a top end overhaul a while ago, and is on an oil analysis program. My 337 engines are running strong, have no metal wear, new oil/fuel/hydro lines and good compressions.

Using risk management, buying high time engines on a 337 is less risky than on a conventional twin. So I wouldn't recommend flying high time engines on any other twin except a Skymaster. My plan is to fly my engines to failure because I can always land with on the other one, because there is no telling how many hours these engines will really run -- especially since I've seen engines with 2700+ on them. I think it is a small gamble if you really want to get in a Skymaster and start flying, and stop dreaming.

[JLemons]

Thanks for the replys! This is not the first time I have persued the idea of buying a Skymaster. About 3-4 years ago I found a couple that seemed very tempting to buy. I ran the numbers, and factored in the insurance quote. In the end, my monthly payment would have been in the neighborhood of around $700 - $900 a month. Too costly for the monthly budget. This airplane seems to be the perfect deal financially. I have a relative who is an A&P mechanic who is eager for me to buy an airplane. I can see the savings in maintenance alone as he has told me he will work for "ice tea" and flight time.

At this point and time of my life (I'm 40), I really haven't stepped out and took on an adventure that is nearly this "risky" or costly. We have no "family toy". I have been very conservative with my finances and my "no debt" status is something I'm pretty proud of. Aviation has always been my primary interest in terms of a hobby and career, and being a helicopter pilot in the Army has brought more job satisfaction than any other job possibly could. My one regret in life will be the day I realize that I can no longer fly and did not persue airplane ownership at a time when I should have. Having said that, I am faced with the decision between buying an airplane or paying off our house early. Currently, I have a plan to pay off the house by April 08. If I move forward with owning a Skymaster, the house pay off plan will be extended a few more years. Not a big deal really.

Soon I will be leaving Iraq and return home. Once again I will present the idea to my wife about owning an airplane. There's just so many things that make this kind of decision easy but yet so difficult. Who else has been in this position?

James

[Ernie Martin]

If you have no debt except your mortgage, if you have been saving enough that you can pay off the mortgage (read: responsible), and if you're reasonably certain of steady income after returning from Iraq, then buy the plane. One other thing: when you present the plan to your wife, show her your last message. She needs to know that, for you (and most of us), life isn't life without flight.

Ernie

[Frank Benvin]

Buy it and enjoy!!!!
You never know what life will bring
I use to think I will wait a little longer to do things. My dad is 76 and has had a good life. I am 44

Two years ago at 39 my wife was hit with breast cancer ( A two year survior the end of this month)

Also I got a call from my employees wife two years ago after 10 year with me he passed away in his sleep of a massive heat attack at 45.

I you can afford it go for it

Frank

[WebMaster]

Frank, I am so sorry to hear about your wife, but at the same time I am happy she is a survivor.

James,
Tell them you want to buy it, but you need to figure out what is wrong with the rear engine before you can make an offer. If you do a search on this message board, I think you will find a mechanic who is reasonably close to the airplane. Or, better yet, send the close relative, and tell him you'll buy the tea when he comes back.

Make the offer, buy the plane. Then you can enjoy flying fixed wing things, instead of those "fling wings".

[Roger]

James

First of all I will probably take some abuse for this, as I don't really post here often, but kind of rely on the board for technical issues. That being said I don't believe that this is necessarily the best place to get advise for what I perceive as a financially conservative and well meaning individual who is not an A&P, that would like to take up flying (which I wholeheartedly support) in a 337 (which I disagree with).

Throughout the past 20 years I have owned a variety of aircraft, and in many ways the aircraft I owned were relative to the amount of money I was making. I started with a 150, and went all the way to a Navajo Panther, plus a fractional in a Piaggio. Now I'm back to a 337-H as a fun mobile, plus the fractional.

However I must warn you that the 337 (be it the one you are looking at or one in better shape for 6 times the price, will not be easy on your wallet. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the plan for paying off the house early, doesn't change into a 2nd mortgage for the first 2 annuals, engines, and some half way decent avionics.

I believe that the 337 is by far one of the premier aircraft ever built, and that's why I bought my 2nd one. But I also believe that it is at least 3 times as expensive to fly and maintain as a 172 or a warrior.

So my suggestion would be that you continue with your dream to fly (and possibly buy a plane) but you start with a reasonable single and build your way into it> That was it doesn't become such a financial burden that you and your family sour on the beauty of owning your own plane.



R

[Ernie Martin]

Roger has some valid points that I can't quarrel with. But let me play devil's advocate for a moment.

First, James is not just starting to fly. He's a helicopter pilot and instructor, and a single may not fill the bill.

Second, there may not be that much of a financial difference. If a Skymaster costs substantially less than a single (and I don't know that to be true), if one is cautious about adding avionics goodies (isn't a Garmin 396 around $2,000 now?), and if maintenance costs can be moderated by his A&P friend, it may be that you can fly a 337 for 5-10 years for the same outlay as a single. And get the extra safety and higher performance of the 337.

Food for thought.

Ernie



PS. Although I have a Master's degree in engineering, I've spent most of the past 20 years on the business and finance side of things -- not the technical side. And others on this board (like Jerry De Santis) are seasoned businessmen. So I think that the views expressed in this forum are broad-based.

[JLemons]

Some really good advice on this thread. I believe the "general rule" regarding the amount of flight time you need to fly in a given year is 100 hrs to make owning an airplane worthwhile. So, that's what I used to determine a monthly expense. Roughly, that's 8 hours a month. If the Skymaster burns about 20gph then I could expect to spend at least $420/month on fuel. I realize insurance will be through the roof my first year so, I didn't factor it as part of the "norm". Instead, I used $3000/yr for insurance in hopes I would be that lucky. That brings another $250/month. My total now is $670 and will probably incur another $100 for the tie-down fee (my guess). So, even if I paid cash down for a Skymaster that is $29,500, I'm still looking at $770/month in operational expenses alone for 8 hours of flying. And what happens when an engine with over 2200 hours goes bad? Now I have to shop for a loan and spend another $400-$500/month in paying for an engine for a number of years. My current budget can't handle that risk at the moment. Sadly enough to say, I'm probably going to have to walk away from this particular purchase. Lastly, even with a close relative for maintenance support, he is very meticulous. I can see having to spend even more when the annual comes due. Perhaps now is not the time for me. For now, my income just doesn't measure up to the price tag of owning and operating a Skymaster.

James

[Paul Sharp]

My opinion is perhaps middle of the road. I think the Skymaster is about an "average" twin in maintenance costs.

The reason some claim it to be higher is, again in my opinion:

1 - The plane wasn't as popular as Cessna hoped it would be, and some early takeoff incidents made its numbers no better than other twins (I believe that if only the recent decade or two were taken into account it might be better than average but that's just a guess).
2 - The prices went down as a result. So a number of people were able to buy a "cheap" twin.
3 - But buying isn't the same as flying and maintaining. Thus many buyers who got in cheap weren't up to the financial demands of paying for full "middle of the road" maintenance. So many models got neglected.
4 - So many buyers ended up getting a cheap airplane but then spending a bundle on getting it flyable and up to snuff. As a result the model got a bad, if unfairly deserved, reputation as a maintenance hog.

If you get one that has been maintained overall, then you wont have to spend more than any "average" twin to keep it in shape. But twin budgets are higher than singles on average, so one must be prepared or he'll turn into one of those owners who ends up selling cheap (cause that's all he can get for it) and then the new owner has to spend a bundle getting the aircraft into shape.

For my money, nothing anywhere close to the price range will equal the capability of the model I have, and of course I'm prejudiced:

1 - Ceiling to 33K feet (although that's now limited practically by the recent RVSM regulations); I get this because mine is a turbo model.
2 - Factory O2 so that I can go high whenever I need or desire without concern over oxygen safety requirements (I also have a backup portable system on the passenger seat back).
3 - Two engines, that will maintain 16K feet on either engine in single-engine mode.
4 - No asymmetrical thrust problems (not that this removes the need to keep sharp on engine-out responses).
5 - Great IFR capability (more a function of avionics and pilot training but the model is a great IFR platform).
6 - Great load capacity and lots of options.

Paul:

After all of the information I've researched on 337's, this is the first time that I've noticed that one has a service ceiling of 30,000+! Have you ever gotten close to that? My normally aspirated gets very tired around 13,000.

I notice that the P models only have a service ceiling to around 20,000. I assume that's because of the cabin pressurization capabilities.

Anyone have any info on this. Very interesting to those of us in the SE in the summer!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

PS. Just read the next thread and I think my questions were answered. Can't believe I never noticed this before!

Thanks for all the good info!
________
AVANDIA LAWYER

[Paul Sharp]

I've had my aircraft up to 24,000 before. I didn't try to go higher before the RVSM regs took effect, and wish I had just to see, but I think it would have readily gotten up to its service ceiling of 33K, albeit at a slowing rate the higher it got.

I found it was true what the book said about it in that you could set the climb settings at sea level (2600 RPM, 28 MAP, 14.5 GPH, and pretty much just let it go right on up to 22 or 24 thousand. It was amazing, and is a testament to me of the design that it works so well. All you have to do is monitor it, switch from canula to mask at 18K, and level off when you get there. (If you went higher you'd have to make a few small adjustments as specified for readings over 22K or so.)