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  #1  
Unread 07-18-22, 11:45 AM
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n86121 n86121 is offline
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More Research on "The great center strap debate"

Comrades!

Never knowing when to leave anything alone, I felt need to 'drill down' on this topic a bit more. Yes, that IS a pun and I want full credit!

Please eyeball the attached PDF and throw rocks at it if you feel the need.

If you look back at decisions and actions made years ago, it seems 'THE STRAP' today really just boils down to a matter of personal preference.

....As long as you are NOT in a pressurized 337.

Which is fine. I like freedom, don't you?

Years ago, before cancer got him, a good personal friend and Potomac-based pilot Alfonso Diaz DC dug deeply on this 'behind the green (gov) door' (within FAA and NTSB). You may not have known this, but he had been an FAA flight safety inspector, as well as air traffic controller, lots of clearances, etc etc etc.

He found ...no issues.

Zip. Null. Zippo. Big goose egg.

While there IS always the possibility 337 windows have been popping out all over the world, left and right, chances are at least one would have been reported somewhere.

Zip. Null. Zippo. Big goose egg.

He put a new windshield in his 336 ...and then hit a bird. He sent me photos. Yikes.

To get the perspective of a well-known and widely trusted IA/ A&P, very familiar with these airframes, I got into this discussion with Mike Busch of Savvy Aviation.

His reply in my report.

As with most everything, today's practices are often just vague repetitions of the past, having entirely forgotten the rhyme or reason for those past decisions.

Which may or may no longer apply at all...

Enjoy
Attached Files
File Type: pdf research.pdf (747.5 KB, 112 views)
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10300 Glen Way
Fort Washington, MD 20744
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  #2  
Unread 07-18-22, 11:45 AM
n86121's Avatar
n86121 n86121 is offline
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More Research on "The great center strap debate"

Comrades!

Never knowing when to leave anything alone, I felt need to 'drill down' on this topic a bit more. Yes, that IS a pun and I want full credit!

Not sure if PDF got to forum, so here is link to it posted on my airfield website

http://potomac-airfield.com/newslett...ldresearch.pdf

Please eyeball the attached PDF and throw rocks at it if you feel the need.

---

If you look back at decisions and actions made years ago, it seems 'THE STRAP' today really just boils down to a matter of personal preference.

....As long as you are NOT in a pressurized 337.

Which is fine. I like freedom, don't you?

Years ago, before cancer got him, a good personal friend and Potomac-based pilot Alfonso Diaz DC dug deeply on this 'behind the green (gov) door' (within FAA and NTSB). You may not have known this, but he had been an FAA flight safety inspector, as well as air traffic controller, lots of clearances, etc etc etc.

He found ...no issues.

Zip. Null. Zippo. Big goose egg.

While there IS always the possibility 337 windows have been popping out all over the world, left and right, chances are at least one would have been reported somewhere.

Zip. Null. Zippo. Big goose egg.

He put a new windshield in his 336 ...and then hit a bird. He sent me photos. Yikes.

To get the perspective of a well-known and widely trusted IA/ A&P, very familiar with these airframes, I got into this discussion with Mike Busch of Savvy Aviation.

His reply in my report.

As with most everything, today's practices are often just vague repetitions of the past, having entirely forgotten the rhyme or reason for those past decisions.

Which may or may no longer apply at all...

Enjoy
__________________
David Wartofsky
Potomac Airfield
10300 Glen Way
Fort Washington, MD 20744

Last edited by n86121 : 07-18-22 at 11:57 AM.
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  #3  
Unread 07-18-22, 01:13 PM
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mshac mshac is offline
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Owning a P337H, going "strapless" is not an option for me.

However, in my previous life as a Beechcraft owner, every model I owned from Bonanzas, Travel Airs, Twin Bonanzas, and Barons ALL had their factory center strap removed and replaced with D'Shannon one-piece windshields.

The only question was what thickness and tint color I desired. There was never an issue of airworthiness.

I once had a birdstrike on the Baron one-piece windshield whilst on approach to FXE (Fort Lauderdale Executive) by a very large seagull. It cracked the windshield, but did not penetrate.

My two cents.

Last edited by mshac : 07-18-22 at 01:16 PM.
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  #4  
Unread 07-18-22, 09:03 PM
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Skymaster337B Skymaster337B is offline
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Check out AC 43-210A.

The logic of a minor alteration is good…but since an STC exists for this alteration, it is considered a Major alteration by definition. It’s a kind of catch 22. This would make for a great legal challenge. Did the FAA erroneously issue an STC? An STC can not be granted for a minor alteration.

But I like the statement (paraphrased) “…if you ask the FAA it’s out of your hands.”
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  #5  
Unread 07-19-22, 02:01 PM
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Who offers a one-piece front windshield for the 337? I did a quick search but came up empty-handed. Everything I found was two-piece.
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  #6  
Unread 07-23-22, 04:41 PM
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http://www.glapinc.com/Cessna/337/index.htm

Im pretty sure they are one piece. Rtaero offers stc for no strap
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  #7  
Unread 08-07-22, 02:33 PM
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STC RT Aero

I have seen pictures of that in the past.

What I recall was basically an excuse to charge someone $600?

A little metal plate at the bottom of the windshield that is already solidly held in by the fairing.

Really?
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  #8  
Unread 08-08-22, 09:42 AM
Pushpull5785 Pushpull5785 is offline
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Im confused… I’m actually getting ready to replace windows in my plane and would like to remove the center post. What is the argument we are chasing here? Whether or not it’s legal to install the windshield and leave off the center strap without purchasing the STC from RTAerospace? My .02 is if the feds at one point deemed it necessary to have engineering work done and flight test done and then issued an STC, there must be something there they saw that warranted the issue of an STC.

I’ve seen the doublers on another aircraft and they at least seem to add some sort of structure to them. For $600 I think it’s cheap insurance and keeps you legal. Unless you find an IA that will be fine installing it and risking their cert, which there are some that exist.

You’ve put in a lot of work here in your research but end of the day an STC does exist (and at $600 I’ve wasted more on a lot more useless things) and I feel that your work probably cost a lot more of your time than just paying the 600 and staying 100% legal.
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  #9  
Unread 08-08-22, 10:00 AM
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mshac mshac is offline
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The post above, being the new member's first, seems to have a very strong interest in having the $600 STC fee paid. Is this account the STC Holder's sockpuppet? Very suspect as a first post. No introduction, no "about me", just "PAY THE MONEY"...

Most owners don't make the decision so publicly regarding what is essentially a note from the doctor explaining why you missed school. Am I wrong to say there is no structural modification to the airplane other than not reinstalling the center strap?

Reminds me of the Peterson/EAA autogas STC stickers. $1 per hp for a sticker that makes it legal to run mogas in your airplane. No changes to the airplane whatsoever. I know a lot of folks who are "sticklers" about paying for the sticker, and many others who don't give a rats **s. Never heard of anyone getting in trouble for it. Doubt highly anyone would care much about the center strap STC either, except the STC holder!
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Unread 08-08-22, 10:18 AM
Pushpull5785 Pushpull5785 is offline
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Actually been a member and lurked for years. I’m just curious about this as I’m doing my windows here shortly.

I did say that if you find an IA willing to sign it off without the STC then go for it.

I personally would rather pay the $600 (maybe because my IA will not install the windshield without either reinstalling the center post or obtaining the STC… in his words, if I take it off, it goes back on. If not there better be paperwork) that being said Im still not sure which way I’ll go as I do not necessarily mind the center post and it saves me from getting a new compass… which would cost me more money.

Also Id assume RTAerospace has an account on here don't they? Has anyone reached out to them?
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  #11  
Unread 08-08-22, 10:44 AM
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Here is a photo of a 337B that was for sale jan/2021
Looks like he did without posts or plates.
Was it legal? idk.
I do remember reading somewhere the concern was that the windshield would/could pop out during flight.
but i think OEM wind shields were 1/8” thick at the time but now they are available in 1/4” and less likely to come out.


https://ibb.co/Fb85GrD
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  #12  
Unread 08-08-22, 01:40 PM
Pushpull5785 Pushpull5785 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshac View Post
The post above, being the new member's first, seems to have a very strong interest in having the $600 STC fee paid. Is this account the STC Holder's sockpuppet? Very suspect as a first post. No introduction, no "about me", just "PAY THE MONEY"...

Most owners don't make the decision so publicly regarding what is essentially a note from the doctor explaining why you missed school. Am I wrong to say there is no structural modification to the airplane other than not reinstalling the center strap?

Reminds me of the Peterson/EAA autogas STC stickers. $1 per hp for a sticker that makes it legal to run mogas in your airplane. No changes to the airplane whatsoever. I know a lot of folks who are "sticklers" about paying for the sticker, and many others who don't give a rats **s. Never heard of anyone getting in trouble for it. Doubt highly anyone would care much about the center strap STC either, except the STC holder!

Sorry to jump back on this but it has thrown a wrench into my decision on which way to go now that you’ve brought up a few points…

Comparing this to the auto fuel stc, has anyone been flagged for removing the center post and not having the stc…

I would imagine if the STC holder cared about this he would be putting the feds onto any plane that does not have a center post and does not have his STC. Is this happening? If it’s not then why is there a discussion? Install what you want with your mechanics blessing and be on your way.

I guess I did not like being called a sock puppet but I still fail to see the big issue here. Does the OP want everyone to jump on board with his decision that could possibly not be legal? The only reason I felt that the cost is justifiable here is that we all know what we spend on our airplanes… and $600 is a drop in the bucket for what these planes demand and at least from my POV and that of my IA, it’s cheap insurance to remain legal. So at the end of the day, my question is, does the STC provide anything structurally or not? That should be the answer to your question on legality of minor or major correct?
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  #13  
Unread 08-08-22, 04:53 PM
GAdams GAdams is offline
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It sure does make the old girl look pretty good.
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  #14  
Unread 08-09-22, 04:34 PM
kbecker kbecker is offline
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My center post was removed before I purchased the plane in 1995 (1977 337G). I know there is paperwork for the removal, I think a 337 form with some accompanying engineering data. I don’t think it was an STC.

I am not near the logbooks but will be so on Sunday.

I would be glad to either post them to the forum or email them to anyone who is interested.

No sense in going through the extra expense or re-inventing the wheel if it has been done previously and accepted by the FAA

Kevin
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  #15  
Unread 08-09-22, 04:44 PM
kbecker kbecker is offline
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Please see the attached pictures
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