Skymaster Arctic Circle Ditching.

[tropical]

Originally Posted by Diamond Service

My advise to pilots that fly over remote areas is to have the right equipment and use it. I also learned that what you have inside your suit is what you have left after a ditching. I know that the people that searched for me that night and the people that took care of me after I was saved is probably not in this forum but I want to thank them anyway. I am touched and lost for words on what they have done for me.

Troels.

I'm just curious about one thing, why did you choose that time of year to make the trip? It seems to me making the trip in the middle of summer would far outweigh making it in the winter.

[Skymaster337B]

hharney, thanks for the info. It seems like there should be a limitation of -20C posted in the operator's manual unless the winterization kit is installed. But now that I know the nomenclature it is figure 83A in the maintenance manual for 65-69' models. There is also a placard figure 1 for "remove winterization kit for temps above -20C." It seems to me like the placare should say "install winterization kit for operations below -20C". What's everyone else's thoughts? Perhaps a new AD is required!


================================================== ================
"In the POH of my 1968 Super Skymaster (lots of emphasis on the SUPER) Section VII on Optional Systems contains "Cold Weather Equipment" and says:

WINTERIZATION KIT.
"For continuous operation in temperatures consistently below 20 degrees F, the Cessna winterization kit, available from your Cessna Dealer, should be installed to improve engine operation. The kit consists of two baffles for the front engine, one baffle for the rear engine, and crankcase breather insulation for both engines. Once installed, the crankcase breather insulation is approved for permanent use in both cold and hot weather."

Attached is a photo of the front baffles but I have never seen the rear engine baffle. This statement is pretty standard in most all the Cessna piston Pilot handbooks except for the Turbo models. Maybe the Turbo models generate enough heat and do not require this?"

[Skymaster337B]

hharney, thanks for the info. It seems like there should be a limitation of -20C posted in the operator's manual unless the winterization kit is installed. But now that I know the nomenclature it is figure 83A in the maintenance manual for 65-69' models. There is also a placard figure 1 to "remove winterization kit for temps above -20C." It seems to me like the placard should say "install winterization kit for operations below -20C". What are everyone else’s thoughts? Perhaps a new AD is required!

One final thought, Cessna called it a winterization kit...but I'm flying in the winter without it. So perhaps it should be call the extreme cold weather kit...-20C is extreme cold weather. I really think Cessna went out of their way to ignore the whole -20C operation.


================================================== ================
"In the POH of my 1968 Super Skymaster (lots of emphasis on the SUPER) Section VII on Optional Systems contains "Cold Weather Equipment" and says:

WINTERIZATION KIT.
"For continuous operation in temperatures consistently below 20 degrees F, the Cessna winterization kit, available from your Cessna Dealer, should be installed to improve engine operation. The kit consists of two baffles for the front engine, one baffle for the rear engine, and crankcase breather insulation for both engines. Once installed, the crankcase breather insulation is approved for permanent use in both cold and hot weather."

Attached is a photo of the front baffles but I have never seen the rear engine baffle. This statement is pretty standard in most all the Cessna piston Pilot handbooks except for the Turbo models. Maybe the Turbo models generate enough heat and do not require this?"

[Diamond Service]

Originally Posted by tropical

I'm just curious about one thing, why did you choose that time of year to make the trip? It seems to me making the trip in the middle of summer would far outweigh making it in the winter.

I purchased the aircraft in June. I planned the crossing for the end of august.Unfortunately the work on the aircraft took much longer than expected. I know that it is serious business to perform this flight during the winter and that you can easily be on the ground waiting for a weather improvement. If you are planning a flight like this make sure that you got thé right gear.I hope this answers your question.

Troels.

[Roger]

Great story, and an absolutley great piece of survival flying and ditching. You should certainly write it up in either short story format, or talk to somebody about a book. Make up a couple Eskimo chicks and an igloo, and you could probably pay for the plane.

I would however not jump to any conclusion about oil loss being the cause of the engine failures. It is far to much of a coincidence to have both engines fail that close to each other from a oil problem, especially in a Skymaster. The whole dynamics of the engine compartment temperatures, and subsequent temperature variations encoutered by the oil systems is too diverse to have them both encounter the same error within minutes of each other.

It sounds like plain old fuel starvation which wound down the oil pressure , which cooled down the temps, which then caused some form of noise form the prop once there was no oil pressure in the system. Maybe the big noise was the blade kicking back to feather , and that was caused by it being frozen once the rpm's starting bleeding off.

Regardless, congratulations on getting through it.

[Ernie Martin]

Three times I have had an engine quit in mid-flight due to fuel starvation. Ignoring the first time, when I had zero experience with the aircraft*, the indications are immediately obvious as fuel starvation. Given Troels familiarity with this aircraft and his experience, I very much doubt that this was fuel starvation.


Ernie

______________
* It was my first Skymaster flight and, while climbing, the instructor turned the fuel selector valve to off without my knowledge to demonstrate the docile behavior after a lost engine.

[CO_Skymaster]

Does Cessna still sell the winterization kit or does anyone know where I can get an aftermarket version of it? I definatly need it flying around the Colorado Rockies in the winter.

Karl

[Diamond Service]

I never forget the sounds that my engines made before they stopped.Sounds of metal against metal and great friction followed by a loud bang. I saw the low oil pressure indication before they made these sounds.To me it is very clear why they stopped.

Troels.

[Roger]

I don't mean to be contentious giiven your extensive experience, personal observations, and expertiese, I am only concerned that because this is an "infomrmation sharing website" that we should all be cautious about what we profess to "know for sure" when it may affect other pilots safety.

I would think that because we don't "know" what happneded to your engines, that we should keep an open mind about other possibilities such as vapor lock and/or fuel stavation, gelling, fuel pumped outboard through the vents, frozen/cracked cork fuel tank seals, etc...

I didn't notice if you ever mentioned cross feeding the tanks, before or after the engine failure. For example when the rear failed, did it make the same loud noise, and/or did it just go out for an entirely different reason, and because the front failed from perhaps an oil problem, did you assume the rear had the same problem, and there was no reason or time to try a cross feed and restart?

Not picking on you : It must have been a nightmare. Just want to make sure nonone else encounters a like scenerio and has the wrong assumptions.

[Diamond Service]

Dear Roger.
I totally agree with you. For the same reason I try not to speculate or draw conclusions and just write exactly what happened and what I observed. I told my story in this forum because I was very thrilled about being a Skymaster owner and pilot. I am not trying to say that the Skymaster is a bad and unsafe aircraft. More than anybody I would like some answers to what happened to my engines,but unless the aircraft is salvaged I will probably never get any answers.I have been told that the Hudson Strait is 113 meters deep at the position we were picked up and since there is nobody in the plane it will not be raised.

Troels

[Skymaster337B]

Well said, but since this is an information web site, the info we've discussed is very valuable and should be taken to heart by all of us. For me personally, the -20C is a big red alarm if I'm ever flying in weather that cold...let's hope not.

[Paul462]

So Troels, when are you buying the replacement 337? There are some great deals around!

If you can pick one up during the next couple of months, you can meet us at the 2010 SOAPA Fly-In in Branson! :-)

[Diamond Service]

Paul
Do you know any good ones. I need the following.

Non turbo VAR crankshaft engines with some time left.Deicer boots.Preferably with some new garmin avionic including mode S transponder and a 406 ELT. ADF and DME is still a requirement in my country .Propellers and governors within their calender lifetime of 6 years. Magnetos within their calender lifetime of 4 years. Engine and airframe hoses within their lifetime as stated in the maintenance manual.

These are all EASA requirements and I know that finding one that meets all of them is hard since you normally dont do overhauls based on calender time in the US and so on.

I hope that I can go to one of your meetings some day and see your Skymasters.

Troels.

[Paul462]

Troels,

It sounds like a normally aspirated 337 with engines having been overhauled within the last 10 or 15 years should do - VAR cranks should have been installed at that time.

To get a panel still equipped with ADF/DME you'll probably want an older, non-updated panel (updated panels would have removed at least the ADF), and install a 406 ELT and S XPDR. If you don't require a panel-mounted IFR GPS (and even if you do), a Garmin 496 provides amazing functionalities.

Are there life limits stated on engines? I've only heard of TBO's. Replacing the engine hoses and airframe flexible hoses isn't that big a deal, and would start you on a new 5-year cycle.

Happy hunting!

[gwengler]

Here is the link to a CBC documentary. As good as it gets, I guess.

http://www.cbc.ca/player/Shows/Shows/ID/2305885459/

Gerd