for... Skyking...

[GMAs]

Hey I thought that a ppt presentation would work out for sending across the web... but....

So here you are... you answer to your question about the Waist gate clean out kit...

If you look at the picture of the actuator in the service manual you will see that it is comprised of a inlet... unfilterd nat... a orfice... where the dirt usually gets stuck in... a piston...a big spring.... and a outlet... which goes to the controler..

Now we have been thru the way the system works before so we won't cover that here... you already know what happens when... so lets just look at the actuator and how to clean it without taking it out...

What you will need....

Your compression checker.. the thing you check your cyc compression/blowdown ... it has a regulator on it as well as a on off air valve...

You will need a clean small paint pot... or some other canister that can stand up to 60 lbs pressure on it... tubing/pipe..etc... and can be filled with a cleaning fluid... stodard solvent, gas.. etc... fire here is the key word... as we are going to creat a enviroment that can be damaging if care is not taken... sort of a risk management kind of things... not to be done in a hangar ...

You will need a couple of fittings with some alu tubing already flaired so that you can attach them to the Outlet of the paint pot... to the OUTLET of the actuator... and some clamps...to keep the hose from blowing off...

and you will need some hose...to connect the thing up... we use tigon hose... some can use nlyon and other may want to use plain old rubber hose... that is clean inside...

How it all goes togeather......

Remove the and clean out the lines from the actuator.. and remove the inlet fitting gaining access to the chamber where the orfice hole is drilled... (note the direction it was facing and the number of threads showing above the locking nut...

You connect your compression tester to the air supply... it then in turn has the on off valve that goes to the regulator... which is set for 60 lbs... not 80 that you use for testing the cyc's... this output then goes to the paint pot or in some cases we have seen them use just a longer piece of tigon tubing that is loaded with gas or cleaning fluid.... the end of the paint pot..(liquid output) is attached to the OUTPUT of the waist gate... so that when we apply the pressure.. we get fluid that is forced backwards into the actuator... which then will flush out the orfice and clean out the piston and cyc area...

Ok you say.. but will that clean it out ... well yes and no....

you have to remove the small inlet fitting on the actuator so that all the dirt can be blown out without any being left in the bottom of the inlet orfice area... otherwise if you didn't take the fitting out.. and it has a o ring on it... so you need to look at 43.13 for how to tighten them back up correctly.... you could have some dirt still stuck in it....

Look but, never try and force a piece of wire down into the orfice... as all you will do is get the dirt piece stuck in the controller and now you will have other problems...

Ok .. why only 60 lbs.... of air pressure.. well your oil system operates on that that most of the time... and when you bring the air on line.. its going to force the piston down to the bottom of the actuator... if you used more pressure you might take the chance of blowing the piston seal... not good... so we limit ourselves to 60 lbs...of air pressure... and let it flow.. till the fluid is all forced thru.. and air is the only thing left coming out... which will dry the cleaning fluid/gas.... and no you can not use anything else... sorry... you will hurt the seals if you do...

When you get done.. look with a inspection mirror down into the actuators inlet... with a light it should look clean... if not repeat the process again...

This should save lots of time for taking the thing appart and putting it back togeather again... sure it makes a mess but, its less time finishing and cleaning the engine with a spray gun than taking the bolts out and removing the actuator...

Now if dirt gets up into the controller.. your on your own... as this is much more than just flushing it thru.... Gary Main down at Main turbo has told me many times at the maintaince meetings that he has seen the skymasters have more problems with wear and dirt in their contollers than just about any other plane... and it seems to wear the control pins... faster...

Here my suggestion is that you take it off and send it to him... as he has the necessary set up tools and shop to do the job... it runs about 500 buck to have one gone thru... and overhauled... so you want to make sure the oil is clean.. another reason we say to use the 25 hr rule... but, others will say thats not economical... OK...

Oh and when you go to put the inlet fitting back in the actuator.. you might want to go look at the part on setting the O ring.... yes their is a special way to do it...

And when done have your mechanic make sure the lines are not twisted, kinked or otherwise... leaking or could leak...

We have found that if you start to get dirt/parts of carbon.. which start to block up the inlet orfice... you might want to pull the plug on the bottom of the accessory case... the big one... along with the oil filter adapter.. and clean out the bottom of the casting... as you can be sure that if their was one speck... of carbon their.. that their are others just waiting... to make the trip down the hose to the actuator.... smile...

runing the engine and keeping the system clean is the best way... change the oil often is the other... and lastly... flying the plane and maintaing it is the last.... the actuators do get plugged up... and we have asked for permission to change the line to the "flitered oil" but, it seems that they are recluant to make any changes...even though the early engines has a tap on the main feed of oil to the engine gally where the oil pressure line attaches...(this was filtered oil)... to many lawyers... I guess... so we have been working on a inline filter assembly that would/could be put on as a STC thing... but, that takes time and with the small few in numbers.. that would need it.... is un-econimically sound.. sorry...

Hope this helps... it would be better if I could show you the pictures of the stuff.. and how we do it... usually takes about 30 min to clean both.. front and rear... and oh ya.. this is a pilot/owner/ helping the mechanic kinda thing... so you do have to have him around.. when you do it.. but, hey he may learn something and not charge you for his time... smile.. GMAs...

[Don Hickman]

GMAS,

I was a little distressed to read the last part of your post. Are you saying that the oil line filter thing for the turbos is not going to happen? I have lost track of the number of times I've had to clean out the darn thing! Seems like most every time we change the oil on the front engine I then have no turbo on takeoff. So I taxi back and we clean out the thing per your recommendations and then the turbo works fine until the next oil change. (25 hours)

So, I've been waiting for word that the STC has been obtained so I could ge those filters for both engines. Is this going to happen or am I doomed to continual cleaning?

[Bob Cook]

Don

I have NEVER needed to do this EVER. Make sure you keep the engines lean as possible on the ground and as much as possible in the air.
I change the oil after 25 hrs and oil and filter at 50.

Perhaps you have some crap left over from the previous owner like Skyking.

Keep them LEAN AND MEAN!

BTW did you see the new ad for the BMW "mini". Saw a billboard that said "quit using your middle finger buy a mini"..............

bob

[Don Hickman]

Bob, I change oil just as you do and I run as lean as I can. My mechanic says its just lots of stuff coming loose because the engine is finally being run regularly whereas before I bought it, 25 hours was a big year. But I keep thinking that surely whatever deposits are in that engine have to all come out! Not yet, however. Just had to clean the actuator last week after my last oil change. Runs fine now.

Leaving for Mexico in the morning. Catch you in a couple of weeks.

[GMAs]

I will keep the pressure on the FAA to see if we can get a approval for the modification if you are still interested.... I have the data... and I think I can get Cont engine to come around... and approve the instalation of the filter in line... or the other.. would be to install a T in the oil pressure sender line.. where it is filtered oil... like the early ones had... either way.. we should be able to come up with a change... so that it keeps the units as well as the finer stuff from wearing out the controllers as fast.. as the skymasters/360 engines seem to have a higher rate of overhauls than most other engines... due to the filtered oil vs. the non-like the skymaster does...

Will keep you informed as to which way the ball bounces... didn't think anyone was interested in adding the filter anymore... oppsss sorry... get right on it boss.... GMAs...

[Don Hickman]

Yes, definitely interested. Will buy 2 as soon as they are available! I've already had to replace one controller and I'm tired of losing the front turbo every time I change the oil. Bob Cook just must be a much better pilot than I am!

[Bob Cook]

Don

I am no better pilot! I think that you are now cleaning out the engine after a length of inactivity and perhaps a lot of carbon buildup. As you are aware you need to run the engines above 180 deg oil temp for one hour minimum to burn off the moisture etc. Those trips to Mexico is what it needs.

GMAS
Sounds like I would be very interested as well. It is a good idea having a couple of filters (in parallel) to avoid this problem.

Like Don, I rarely run less than two hours at any one time with at least 68% power.

Hopefully Don is just about over this problem. I think Skyking finally sorted out the problem as well.

Bob

[SkyKing]

Hey Don,

Your experience with no turbo boost AFTER the oil change on the front engine is the same scenario on this end, except the turbo on mine finally came alive after rotation to about 30" and then VERY slowly came up to 35" in the downwind climbout. I was surprised to hear you're having the same problems. You'd think that with fresh oil and a new oil filter that the problem wouldn't be there. How many hours on your front engine? Mine sat quite a bit too before I got it. Our front engine is 1250 TTSN.

And Bob... NO, it's still not sorted out but I'm sure glad to hear you NEVER have these turbo problems, as it is apparently only Don and I that have the "Carbon Gunk Meister" in our engines (HA!-HA!). And BTW, when you comin' out this way??

Anyway, FRONT engine: FIRST FLIGHT after oil & filter change, no turbo boost on the takeoff roll until after rotation, then slow spool. After climbing to 4000', 29"/2400 RPM cruise, then pushing the throttle up turbo responds but it spools up more slowly than the rear engine, which has 140 hrs TT. Came back and landed after an hour-long flight, belly clean as a whistle. I'd put 7-quarts in during the oil change.

SECOND FLIGHT a few days later... oil level during preflight was 5.5 quarts, so added 1-quart. OK turboboost at the initation of the takeoff roll, although 35-36" is all she'd do with 126PPH on fuel flow. Did a 33"/2450 RPM/92 PPH climb @ 125-130 KIAS up to 17,500 and began noticing a slightly nervous MP needle going through anout 14,000. Hit the yellow boost pump and releaned to 92PPH and MP seemed to stabilize. In cruise at 17,500 with OAT of 20 Degrees F, ran 30" MP, 2400 RPM, and 82 PPH. Cyl head temps about 2 needle widths of 400 degrees. Now, here's what was interesting: while in cruise at 17,500, pushing up the front throttle (with some enrichening of the mixture too), I notice the MP begin oscillating back and forth between 30" and 37/38" with fuel flow following. Oil pressure at the edge of the top green and steady, no fluctuations seen. Bring throttle back to 30" and with yellow boost on, everythings fine and steady. Does this sound like maybe a dirty controller?

After a slow descent with power up to keep the cyl head temps constant, and upon landing, noticed the breather let loose a whole bunch of oil down the belly. 30-Minutes after shutdown oil level is back down to 5.6 quarts, so it appears almost a quart sprayed down the belly, up into the rear wheel area and across the top and bottom of the rear stabilizer. Checking the front oil cap, it's wet underneath and down the sides of the oil filler neck, and I discover also that the dip-stick O-ring is missing. Wonder if that had anything to do with the oil loss?

Anyway, waiting for a new O-ring for the dipstick and a new oil cap gasket as it doesn't feel like its tight enough, maybe its allowing upper plenum pressurized air to exert some effect on the breather. And yes, I have separators.

Don, do you get any oil scum and where do you run your oil levels???

Still sorting out the problems. BTW, during the oil change, just a couple of bits of carbon in the recessed portion of the oil plug. Have yet to cut the filter open, but I'm sure we'll find some carbon. Gee, did I leave anything out? 1977 P337.

SkyKing

[Mark Hislop]

I don't know if this will help on the quest for an STC for an inline filter on the controller line, but here goes. I just read a posting on another site from a 414 driver. He had a MP problem that he was trying to resolve. One of the questions that was asked of him was if he had a RAM conversion, because RAM puts inline filters in the oil line leading to the contoller. (They also said that the filters plug up fairly often, and RAM was thinking of eliminating them. I don't understand that...I'd rather clean/replace a filter than have to clean out the contoller inlet.) GMAS, does this help to get an STC approved for the 360? Is it possible that there filter might already be usable for our engines?

Mark

[SkyKing]

Mark,

Are you plagued by the same "Carbon Gunk Meister" that Don and I are experiencing problems with, insofar as turbo boost problems after oil changes?

I'll query a friend of mine who also flies a RAM converted C-414 and see if he can shed any light on this.

SkyKing

[Kevin McDole]

Fortunately, I have not had this problem.

Something sounds strange to me. Why does changing the oil cause this problem to occur? Are you sure you aren't introducing some other problem, such as air in the oil lines?

[Bob Cook]

MP problems

Kevin has not mentioned any problems either. This problem seems to be isolated and not "in mass". Other than Skyking I don't know if it has been brought up over the past couple of years.

It was not a concern at any of the CPA courses. If it is only at takeoff then perhaps the oil is cool, or one of the oil lines have some restriction that is not normal..

What has new oil to do with a controller malfuction?

beats me

Bob

[Mark Hislop]

JR:

So far (4 years in my 73 P337) I've never had the problem. I have one factory reman (about 150 hours on it now, replaced an engine that had 1000 hours, running good but the crankcase cracked) and one mid-time (800 hours) engine. The oil in the mid-time engine gets black very quickly after an oil change, which I assume is carbon from the combustion process. I use Aeroshell 15W50 year round, except when breaking in the new engine, when I used mineral oil. I do not lean aggressively, since I feel that gas is cheaper than maintenance. Unfortunately, I don't put as many hours on the plane as I would like...probably 50-75 per year. Based on all of that, you would think I would be a prime candidate for this carbon fouling problem. However, even though it hasn't happened to me, if GMAS says it happens, I believe it. Maybe it's like gear up accidents...there is those that have and those that will.

Let us know what your 414 friend has to say.

Mark

[Mitch Taylor]

Skyking:

What did the dipstick read after you added 7 quarts and ran the engine a little while? My dipsticks read a quart lower than what's actually in the engines. If I have seven quarts in the engines (stick reads 6) oil use is about 1 quart per 9 hours. If I run at 7 on the dipstick, I get oil out the breather, and lose that top quart very quickly. You should check the stick right after changing the oil and doing a runup. Let it stand overnight and check it again, as you'll probably see at least half a quart more after standing overnight. Now you'll have a better idea in any given situation how much oil is actually in the engines.

Mitch
N5251Z (O-2A)

[Don Hickman]

Skyking,

Regarding oil levels, I try to keep it between 6-7 quarts. If I go above 7, it blows out quickly, just like Mitch Taylor said. And I'm tired of cleaning the belly of the plane! I also have the mysterious vanishing and reappearing quart.

Regarding the controller, I'm now wondering why it is that Skyking and I appear to be the only ones having this problem. There must be others or GMAS wouldn't have brought it up and wouldn't have developed a method for cleaning it out. All I know is that my front engine keeps clogging the controller and my rear doesn't. And it has happened at times other than right after an oil change, but an oil change is guaranteed to bring it on. The front engine oil is always a lot dirtier than the rear. Of course, it's 100 hours past TBO but compressions are still good, oil analysis shows normal and everything else seems to be ok with it so I don't see any reason to replace it just yet although any of that could change at any moment and then I'm looking for a new engine. Rear engine has 300 hours to go to TBO. I suppose when I replace the front engine this controller problem will disappear. Still, I would think filtered oil to the controller would be better than the current setup.