Would It Help If We Went Through A Annual... On The Web...thing

GMAs · #1 10-15-02, 08:57 PM

Hey if you really wanted to get your record up to date... we could go through a mock annual kinda thing and you could then go look it up for your own...

Ya its a lot of work but,... hey if it helps... I'm for it...

You have to remember... you IA is not a trusting person and can you blame him.. so even if you say here is my ad listing from the web... he is going to say "thats nice..." you keep it...

but, besides your manuals, both shop and parts for the major appliances (that is what we call the parts that go on the plane and engines)... you need the TCDS and a listing of all Applicable AD's...

Now just because one AD doesn't apply to your plane you just can't forget it... you have to show where it doesn't apply... either by S/N, make, model or year... and as such have to list it that way...

Appliances are mags, vacuum pumps, starters.. etc...

Three major areas are engines, airframes and propellers... and the latest that they want to stick on is radios and other electronic stuff...

Under airframe ... anything that pretains to the airframe... wheels, brakes, gearpump... etc...

Under engines... anything that it operates... fuel pumps, injectors, starters, alternators etc....

Under propellers... anything that applies to it and supports its operation...

Ok little test here...

is the prop govnor part of the engine accessories or props????.... no fair asking your mechanic for help... where would you look for the answer... ???

G.M> GMAs

Dave Underwood · #2 10-16-02, 05:06 AM

Sounds like a very good idea. When and how do we start?

On the quizz - my guess, without reference to anything is that it is a propeller accessory, but then if memory serve me AC43.13 shows props as part of the Engine Group - Yes - I looked it up - Chapter 8. From the 337 Service Manual, it is part of the propeller group.

Dave

GMAs · #3 10-16-02, 06:22 PM

Dave if you send me your E mail address I will send you a outline of how to do it... its easier than going over it one the web here.. as I can only send one picture at a time for the directions.. where as I can send a complete file direct... do you have powerpoint also... or should I just make it Jpeg?? Its not that long but, it should help you to find your AD's and TCDs.. along with some explanaitons so that you can duplicate it every year... kinda thing... and if you get real good at it.. your mechanic will love you forever because you can save him lots of itme.. seems that your the only one that is interested in getting the info... the others will get around to it eventually when they need it... too... its sort of the old saying... for whom the bell tolls... smile so as soon as you get me the mail address... I will start sending it... thanks... GMAs...

GMAs · #4 10-16-02, 07:11 PM

you don't want to go by the service manual for the accessories listing... you need to go to the TCDs and then direct to the item... so in this case the prop gov is part of the engine as that is what its attached to.. so it would be a engine accessory/appliance and thus we would look it up under the make and manufacture on its own... as shown in the picture...

your TCDs is A23EU and you have a mc Cauley Dcfs310d4/t5 govnor...

Dave Underwood · #5 10-17-02, 04:48 AM

Thanks. E-mail is dunderwood@swl.co.uk - looking forward to your mail. I have Power point and just about everything else so send away and I will figure it out.

Regards - Dave

GMAs · #6 10-17-02, 11:41 AM

Ok dave will start sending you the info... I assume that this plane is regestered to the US as it has the N no... should we assume that it is going to be annualed under US regulations even though it is in the UK... ???

First off we are going to go look up the plane...

We are going to run a N no check and check the paperwork... to make sure things are good in the record office...

then we are going to go to the TCDS and get a CURRENT COPY of the specs for that particular plane... yes if you go look it up under the cessna manufacture youu will not find it... and we will explane why... later on..

Then you need to fill out some more info... like the accessories... fancy name for all the items that are hanging on the engine, and airframe... sort of a itemization of what you have... but, we need to get into things a little more than just saying .. mag 4 each, S6LN-20... we need to list them by S/N as well and any marking on them... everything right down to the spark plugs... (starter, Alternator, etc.. look at the data plates on the items for the info... because we are going to need it to see what we have... Once we have the engines done, we need to list the prop hubs, govnors and anything else... yep it gets labor intensive the first time but, it has to be done because it is required to make the determination if the part is good, bad or as we say servicable... everyting right down to the rims and tires... from the nose to the tail kinda thing... and I will send you a form that you can copy in your computer which can be printed out and kept in a SERVICE LOG BOOK... and once done... won't have to be again... your mechanic will thank you your IA will kiss you.. as you will save him lot of time and yourself money... when it is done...

but, first off .. the dreaded paper work... to find out what it is ... and who is responsible for its care... so we are going to do the N no check... on the regerstry... and check to make sure the airworthy cert is still current...

Next.... G.M> GMAs

GMAs · #7 10-17-02, 12:11 PM

Start by going to this site.. and downloading the info.. print it out.. as it is "The Word"... for how you are to keep your plane.. in accordance with the FAA....

Ernie.. pay attention here.. as your battery could be considered.....

http://www.faa.gov/certification/aircraft/

GMAs · #8 10-17-02, 12:20 PM

Ok we have the N no.. and the plane S/N... lets check the regrestration... go to this page.. and again make a copy of it.. because you will need it some day again... it has all the answers for the proper regestration and all...

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraft.asp

GMAs · #9 10-17-02, 12:23 PM

Their are many different ways to get your information about the airplane... but, here is one way... if you went to the previous site... it will lead you to this one...

http://registry.faa.gov/arquery.asp

find your N no.. and it will provide you with the rest of the information as the FAA has ...

GMAs · #10 10-17-02, 06:48 PM

first we check to see if we are current... as it show the name address make and model engine and date of last transfer...

N-number Database Search Result

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N456TL
Aircraft Serial Number : 0019
Aircraft Manufacturer : REIMS AVIATION
Model : CESSNA FT337GP
Engine Manufacturer : CONT MOTOR
Model : TSIO-360 SER
Aircraft Year : 1977
Owner Name : AIRCRAFT CHARTER INC
Owner Address : SILVERSIDE RD
WILMINGTON, DE, 19810-4902
Registration Date : 06-Jan-1994
Airworthiness Certificate Type : Standard
Approved Operations : Normal

so now we have some more info about the plane... this is also copied into the current folder... (note that the aircraft manufacture is not CESSNA but, REIMS AVIATION.. so we go to that manufacture to get the data... also note it is the FT337GP... not a G337... etc... with the S/n that is listed... not any other.. this is the certs for the plane.) and also we need to know what engine is in the plane... sure we know its a cont engine but, it could be someone else like Rolls Royce or someone else... leaving nothing to chance... (right ERNIE)... we also can confirm the engine from the data plate and s/n on the aircraft... making sure we note what position its in.. along with its appliances...

We also want to make sure that the person who brought the plane in is the agent or current ownere and that his address is correct and current... if not we need to go back to the FAA web site and download some forms for the owner/operator to fill out and get the paper work right... again it is a rule that is often over looked.. but, your insurance agent isn't going to miss... nor is the FAA ... besides if the club wanted to contact you... and invite you to a meeting this is the data that they go by... or if the plane goes down.. here is where they will send the person to notify the next of kin or survivors...etc... or if the FAA wanted to let you know about a problem with the series of aircraft... they mail out a warning... if its not right.. you miss out on the data... so its kinda important

So from here we go to the TCDS.... now ya their is
the old one.. but, wait look at the bottom of the TCDS... and see all them little no's... well each time the manufacture makes a modification or change to the aircraft... they change the numbers... and the highest one wins... so you want to go look before each annual at the TCDS for your particular plane and make sure it hasn't changed ... if it has.. you want to download the newest version and then compair and find out what was changed.. highlight it with a marker and put it in the record file... as the mechanic just might want to see what changed also... like something important... also it list out the placards that are supposed to be in the plane... at the end of the TCD... but, you have to make sure your make and model are what you are looking at...

So were off to the TCDS... oh wait... how do we know what Type certificate our plane is listed under... after all I gave you a present by showing you that yours is under the A23EU cert... most of the others that cessna made are under the A6CE... yes they are different... and they were issued to different manufactures... but, what if we didn't know what type certificate they were issued under... well we can go to the TCDS and do a search or look up the manufacture and find the model of the plane.. after all we found that yours is a FT337GP... from the first listing above.. so we can look at that first.. then after locating it... go to that TCD and pull it up.. locate the S/N and see that it is listed and applies...

Next info on the TCDS as it applies to the mechanic...

GMAs · #11 10-17-02, 07:23 PM

TCDs... ok so you didn't find it.. yet.. well here is where its located on the FAA page... go to this web site...

http://www.faa.gov/certification/aircraft/

Under this we want the standard airworthiness certificate see on FAA page...

Ahhh we have been here before... as I already have taken you here.. but, we want to go to the section of the Type Certificate Data Sheets (Make Model)... here we look at manufactures and that will pull up the Reims manufacture... looking under that we find the FT337GP... and click on that ....

Once in look at the left side panel.. for your model aircraft.. they are all in that little box... after locating it... go to the bottom of the first page..(by the way it is in adobe format) and look at the last revision.. if it is the same... as what you have printed out.. great.. if not.. make a new and highlight the number...

Go to the section on your particlar plane... as it will be listed and highlight it... for easy referance.. as it will be usually between different one... a clue here is to look for the S/N of yours... as a confermation that you have the right one... then highlight any foot notes no's and at the back of the TC you will find where they explane the meaning... as well as the placard s that apply to your model... also look at the speeds of operation... and make sure your POH reflect these... some have changed to knots from MPH... make sure you don't make a mistake... and think that you can cruse at 145 kts... while looking at the airspeed indicator thinking 145 mph... smile...

Some of the other items that your mechanic is interested in are the deflection angles... wt and bal... or any other changes that might be between the different models... and yes their is a difference...

After crusing around and compairing yours to the others... smile... put it in the binder.. for your mechanic to see...

Oh and one other thing that you need to look at .. is the items that the manufacture says can be on the plane... i.e you might have two different props... one from McCu... and another from Standard... these are the only items that the plane was certified with... NO OTHER MAY BE USED ... and it even gives the dim of the props.. i.e from 78 inches to 77.6 inches...(limits of wear) etc... make sure you don't go hanging things on the plane that were not certified for it... as they are illegal.. and one reason that the numbers on the first page change is because the manufactures are always approving new items and getting rid of ones that used to supply the manufacture and have gone out of business... kinda thing... when you run into that.. you must use the new manufacture of the sub product... the old one is history...

So take a min and go look at the props, engines and other accessories that can go on the plane as spec'ed by the manufacture...

Are we done yet... NOPE....

We have TCDS for the engines and other itmes too... as each manufacture... engine... etc have their own Type Certificate data sheet... and the manufacture of the plane went and used their to add to the whole sort of thing... so go look up your engines now.. as a exercise... and again highlight the specific one that is in your plane... look also at the bottom numbers for the highest ... and if you have the older one.. you need to print out the new one...

Next... were going to make sure we have all the S/Ns for the items on the engines and plane...

then its on to the AD listing... ahhhh the biggie...

By the way... here is another question for you...

Do you have to comply with the manufactures Service Bull'tns... before your plane is returned to service (signed off for inspection, 100 hr or annual) if you are under part 91 or 135,141 operation rules... ???

Checking the web for your answer... G.M> GMAs

Dave Underwood · #12 10-18-02, 05:43 AM

Have got or am the process of getting all that information already. The registry information is correct.

In fact I will try and get to the hangar this weekend to start recording all the serial numbers.

Are you suggesting we print off and maintain TCDS for each appliance as well? Actually - good idea.

As to your question - very interesting. Looking at Sections, 43.13, and Appendix D and Sub Part E, 91.401 - I do not see specific mention of SB's being required, however, the override would be in 43.13 which says "current manufacturers manuals or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness." So would it not depend on what was said in the specific SB?

Am I having fun yet?

GMAs · #13 10-18-02, 11:42 AM

Well... it was really a loaded question... because we thru all the areas of operation into it... however, under part 91 operation... you don't have to comply with a SB from the manufacture... it is only a recomendation.. you have to only do the AD's... but, I would as a inspector want to go look at what they found wrong anyway... kinda thing...

Under commercial operation part 135, 141... you have to comply with all current itmes... and that includes SB's...

So I hope that that clears the air about SB's... smile..

Good to get all the manufacturs and S/N's on the items... for your plane... glad also that you found the TCDs for yours... that is a big step that most owners don't seem to be able to master... they get lost in the maze.. kinda thing.. and give up... G.M. GMAs

GMAs · #14 10-18-02, 12:19 PM

As we said in the begining of this thread... we wanted to start to make up a record binder... for the plane... and in it we want to first have ...

Specifications.... a listing of the current specs for your plane... and next a copy of the regestration that we got from the web showing the current name and address, S/n, engines, and the other stuff for the plane. Put Specifications on the tab...

Then we want A copy of our weight and balance... from the original manufacture... then if we have any changes we want to put them second... label the tab .. Wt & Bal Info...

Next we want to have the section entitled Airframe... here we want to have the current TCD from the manufacture ...first.. then we will put pages of the items on the airframe behind it...

I will send you the form that you can print down... for airframe items.

And next we will make a tab ... engines... and behind it we will put the TCD for the engines.. but, we will break it down into a sub tab labeled FWD and REAR... we will put other things behind the TC shortly... with all the s/n's of the accessories that are on the engines... but, here you will have to make a decision... because the mags that are on the fwd engine could be placed behind the FWD engine tab.. or you could make a new tab and mark it.. MAGS... with a sub tab labeled FWD and Rear... its up to you...

We will come back to the binder again after we go through a few more items first... but, everything will eventually go into this binder... when we are done... so don't get a small one... about a 2 to 2.5 inch ring one is good... although some could get away with smaller print and put it into a 1.5 inch ring binder...

I have mine in a 2.5 inch and it just barely has room for all the pages... of items.. but, at any time I can flip to the the section tabs and pull up the info... it works real good... and I even keep my Log books in it also...

I made a picture of the plane as a watermark background..for the front cover and a label for the end of the binder with the N no.. that slips inside the holder... that way we can see it right on the bookshelf... and nothing gets lost or misplaced... all records of maintance and items are in it...

I suggest that others also make up this binder to help themselves as well as their mechanic/IA out... and keep a more accurate record... the pages of the items are made so that say like the battery, is replaced... the date and when is written in on the line.. can be done on computer also... but, if the mechanic has to sign it off.. their is a place for him to make his mark... and you have a record of when the battery was changed... how long the old one lasted... and a pocket for the regestration card... kinda thing at the end...

Nothing like keeping good paperwork records on the plane... and I usually look at the books before I go look at the plane... you can always tell good owners from the flighty ones... by the records they keep... I am impressed by some owners and frustrated at others that say.. well ya we changed the batter ...oh... about a month ago... the guy with the records.. flips to it and says.. ya we replaced it on this date... the other one lasted this long.. the other guy .. well when you check the date on the battery.. it says it 2 years old... and you ask well how long did the other one last... you get.. Gee I don't know... longer than this one???.... they sure don't make the new ones to last do they....

ya my reply is ... well it says its over 2 years old.... Hmmm the guy replies its been that long... wow.. how time flys...

Again good record keeping will also help with the analysis of problems.. such as a vacuum pump that gets replaced more often than it should... means that the system has dirt in it.. and should be flushed... filters and insturments are items to be looked at... as a example...

Sure your supposed to keep record in a log book... but, I keep getting mechanics who write... new battery... date... and signature... or did 100 hr inspection.. found bad parts and replace... (now that says a lot)... and of course the guy who signs off the annual... who never found a thing wrong... although they changed the alternator, starter, battery and contactors... filters and did the oil change... and writes... in the log book...

This aircraft was inspected and found to be ... and returned to service... signed ..Joe Dummy IA... don't beleive me .. go look in just about any long book... and you will find his stamp of approval... and no work done.. wow .. I am amazed at planes that make it thruogh annuals without so much as needing to be lubed... or any items listed in 43.13 as being checked... or serviced... and the owner writes the check out for the time... "??"

Hope this helps... G.>M GMAs...

Dave Underwood · #15 10-21-02, 12:24 PM

I have, or am in the process of getting all of the above. Thank you for that.

On the various SB's, are you saying even manditory SB's are optional under part 91?

Ok, there is still some organising to do with all this paper, but I have collected most of the information pre-purchase and more over the last year. It may not be fun playing with it all, but it is certainly interesting to read all that stuff. The TC's on all the parts is one thing I had not considered, but is very good.

My A&P IA has said he is looking forward to finally getting a well documented plane to look at and has said it will save him a lot of time and me money.

What's next?

Dave