Hello to all, Im very proud to join your group!

[edasmus]

Thanks for the input guys. I generally avoid discussions on techniques. For the simple reason that techniques are basically opinions and everybody is entitled to have their own. I would support any technique that has the aircraft operated within its design limits. If a particular technique works for an individual and it is not outside what Cessna intended then I say go for it.

Thanks, Ed

[hharney]

FWIW

On my bird when I centered the trim tab and the indicator was at the very bottom of the T/O mark

[scottygofast]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you guys, was traveling in puerto rico for the last week or so.. So we solved the problem.. the cable that connects to the flap from the interconnect was not properly connected, so i was only getting the standard amount of trim out of the aircraft, not the normal amout with the flaps lowered. Plus a new battery, and when i get back from my trip out west early next week, I can fly and let you all know how it goes.. Seems the problem should be solved though... Im going to try to make it to Sun n Fun to meet up with everyone, and thanks again for everyone's input and advice, its truly appriciated!

[scottygofast]

Hey guys, I have to say thanks again to ed for your info you've posted to help. I can say the plane lands about a million times better with the additional 16 deg. of trim. try to land it with the trim still in the take off region. Its a hoot. The problem is now solved however, and thankfully so, took off and had some smoke in the cockpit with the smell of melting plastic and more than a little bit of smoke about 2 mins after departure, so it was nice to not have to worry about it when i was on my way back in as quickly as possible.. Smoke was caused by the left main fuel quantity gauge giving out. Anyone on here run an electronic fuel managment system? Looks like both my main fuel gauges are now inop.... Thanks guys!

Scotty

[edasmus]

Hey Scotty,

Well I am happy to hear you have solved the first problem and sorry to hear about this latest one. Smoke sounds scary and fortunately you had no problem making it down safely. You will find many posts on this forum about fuel quantity gauges and they are a weak spot on these aircraft. I had my own issues with mine but never had any smoke like you just encountered. My gauges have been working well since I replaced my signal conditioner from Aero Mach Labs last year.

Many folks here have much to offer about how to determine fuel quantity but I myself am old fashion by simply SLOWLY topping the tanks and then keeping careful track of how much I have flown since the last top off. I can usually come within a 2-3 gallons of estimating what the next top off will take. I would recommend getting those pesky fuel gauges to work however as they are a valuable clue into recognizing a fuel leak before it would become critical.

Keep plugging away at debugging your airplane as much as possible. I know this can get frustrating but once you get through this process, the airplane will be most enjoyable.

Good Luck...

Ed

[Roger]

I agree that it's good to calculate the fuel, given that the guages are so temperamental. I put in the fuel computer to track the useage, but I will caution you that I also had a fuel leak from the cork seal at the top of the right wing (tank inspection port) that drained fuel away one time that of course the computer didn't pick up.

Liekwise an old timer crashed his C150 bush plane 100 yards from the fence down here at SGJ a few weeks ago, and said to the NTSB/FAA/Local Cops, " the guages didn't work but I knew exactally how much fuel I had becuase I always calculate it, there is a leak in the tank".

So meanwhile the plane is sitting at the shop that is doing my annual, and the IA there was asked by the FAA to put 10 gallons in the wings of the 150, and a week later nothing leaked out. It's not going to work out to well for the pilot, but at least he didn't get injured.

Which brings me back to the point that it is better to get the guages fixed, then to rely on other systems that do not give you real quantity. Use the computer or calucluations for planning. Use the guages for flying.

[N5ZX]

Howdy, Scotty.
Welcome to the group. I'm new too.
You asked about fuel management systems:
As youalready know, there isnt a whole lot out there that is certified for the 337 (seems the rest of the world is resistant to acknowledginging our awsomeness).
We just made a "Spare no expense" upgrade to our panel (cant wait to show it off..its a doozy)
As part of our re-fit, I shopped around for fuel LEVEL indicators which would give me more accurate info than the mechanical OEM needle.
I found a few that seemed just right...until I called and found them unavailable for the 337.
Side note- I'm under the San Antonio FSDO "Iron Curtain" so getting field approvals is litterally an acto of congress.
I eventually landed on the Aerospace Logic FL-100 Digital fuel LEVEL indicator.
Its cool. You get digital, color coded bar-graph indications of both fuel tank LEVELS and you also get a digital numeric indication of tank level, calibrated to 1-gallon accuracy.
Sounds perfect.
It aint.
Although at $500, (aviation terms thats almost free) the installation was reasonably easy...about another $500.
But here is the problem. The tanks have to be filled for the initial calibration mark. Then the tanks have to be drained and re-filled at 1 gallon incriments.
Fuel aint cheap....and once drained, FAA says it cant be re-used.
The calibration process took 7 HOURS.
Best of all...the gauge didnt hold the calibration data...so we did it ALL again.
Still no good despite hours on the phone with tech support.
Sent the gauge back to Canada for eval. After the obligatory Customs delays, we received a replacement gauge 10 days later....and recalibrated...again. More fuel...more time...more money....
We even upgraded and recalibrated the penny-cap fuel level sending units.
The Gauge still doesnt work exactly as it is advertised...but its pretty good.
Owen installed a switch for me that allows me to switch back and forth between factory and digital fuel LEVEL instrumentation so I can always abate my fuel paranoia.
You'll see that I keep emphasizing LEVEL. that is because I've found the decision-making tree on fuel instrumentation is divided into three significant branches: Level, pressure, and flow.
"X-Ray" had a Shaden fuel computer when we got it...gives real-time digital fuel FLOW info and is VERY helpful. It also has fuel remaining indications which takes your manual input of how much fuel you have then subtracts the computed fuel flow, to give you fuel remaining....VERY nice instrument.
And we kept the factory fuel PRESSURE instuments (for now).
Flow and pressure are great....if the fuel only goes to the engine.
If you have a leak, or if its being siphoned from the top of the wing....you wont know.
Both of the skymaster schools I've gonoe to say that the skymasters factory needle gauge is remarkably accurate (compared to other aircraft).
Bill, at RTC in Illinoise points out that the fuel level indication on the mechanical needle gauge is so sensitive that you can watch alterations in fuel density as the OAT changes through the altitudes.
I've rambled on long enough, and dont want to loose track of the question: Yes, I have had experience with a few Fuel Management Systems. I love Shaden. I despise Aerospace Logic....it works...but I make sure I have a redundant indicator.
However.... .... I've been keeping in close contact with JPI reguarding their EDM-960 systems monitor. Its been approved for other twins for some time, but the 337 wasnt on the Approved Model List. Yesterday, they submitted the documentation to change that and we should have it available to us in about 3 months!!!!!!!!!
That'll give us computerized ALL of our engine, fuel (level, pressure, AND flow), electrical and vacuum instrumentation...in one package....with audio and visual alarms!!!!!
And its from JPI...an increadibly reputable company.
I initially researched and opted for the Xerion Auricle 2120 systems monitor...it seemed great on paper, but numerous issues with their past and current company caused me to pull the order before it shipped.
If you're thinking of upgrading....you might want to install a used Factory gauge until the JPI system is available.
If you're happy with the factory needle....It'll do a good job.
There's my 2-cents. Sorry for dragging it out so long, but I figure giving too many details up front was better than not enough.
Cole

[Roger]

Sounds cool, and I hate to bring this up after all the hassle you went through trying to calibrate the digital guages, but wouldn't it have been a lot easier to fill one tank in 1 gallon increments untill full, then drain it in one gallon increments and take that gallon at a time and refill the other tank? Then you could be calibrating one down and one up all day long to get it right with? I believe the "can't use it" rule applies to your airplane, not to a specific tank therein. And even so, the most you would have to trash is the one wing of fuel when you were all done. Just a thought for future endevors.

[N5ZX]

I floated that idea to the FIRST installation shop. They said no-go.

I even suggested using water...no go.

I even changed shops; just in case the first one was...."challenged."

The second shop (Owen Bell) specializes in SkyMasters, and they had the same problems.

I called and asked Aerospace Logic why the (heck) they would require such a calibration process...everyone I talked to pointed me to someone else....nobody had a solid answer.

I simultaniously installed one gauge to monitor my mains (75 ea) and a seperage gauge to monitor my tips (20 ea) ... I have 190 gallons total....182 usable.

I had "issues" with both gauges, and with their concept of "support".

Thats why I recommend not going down the path that has my foot prints.

The AE instrument is cool....but it's problematic and doesn't inspire confidence.

One of my MANY MANY MANY hard lessons learned in the process of doing massive upgrades to several planes: it never pays to be the first one to install something. Being the R&D guinea-pig is....frustrating and should be at the manufactureres expense, not the consumer. "certified" should mean virtually bug-free, not "It'll fit, we can work out the issues later."

I'm hopeful that JPI will have a MUCH better product.

Cole

[scottygofast]

Ed, Cole and Roger~

Thanks for your responses. Ive been trying to figure out what to do, and I did actually look at the JPI 960. and it looks like it would be an ideal way to go, but I didnt think it was ready for a 337, so thanks for pushing that through for us Cole! Ill probalby hang out and wait till you install yours, and deal with simply calculating the fuel for the moment, as a majority of my trips are within 600 or so miles. Sucks to fly heavy when you dont have to, but at least its not a 172. I may go with a shadin fuel flow computer for the time being just to have some better flow information. If I did have an issue with a leak, I suppose that I could always plan to leave the aux tanks full so I always know I have extra fuel.

On another note, have any of you put together your own checklist that youve compiled from various sources, or are you just using a checklist that was in the plane when you purchased it? mine is a number of pieces of a book glued to a piece of cardboard, so just trying to save myself a bit of work, if its been done properly by someone who is willing to share~ thanks again guys, and Ill give an update soon~

Scotty

[edasmus]

As for checklists Scotty, what I did is create my own making sure I included all items in the factory check list and then adding other items that are unique to my airplane, (GPS flight plans, electronic headsets, collision avoidance, auto-pilot, etc.). I organized it in a logical flow pattern, typed it into a word document, printed, laminated, and bound it all together. I would suggest sitting in your airplane and hand write a checklist touching everything on the panel and combo it with the factory check list in a logical order. It takes a little time but it is well worth it in my opinion. When it was all done I have a nicely laminated booklet with everything I need with normal, abnormal, emergency, and performance info.

Take care,

Ed

[Ernie Martin]

Scotty, noticing that you joined recently and that you're worried about fuel management and a checklist, let me suggest you visit my "backup" web site at www.SkymasterUS.com.

There is a whole section on fuel management for Skymasters like yours with separate auxiliary fuel tanks, where it reminds you that the fuel in auxiliary tanks should be used in the middle (not the end) of a flight and is not normally available if a main tank runs dry; a round-about way of getting it is presented, but it involves a complex procedure requiring that you first cross-feed.

And I have a one-page checklist similar to the one described by Ed; it's available to you through the web site.

Ernie

[skymstr02]

There is an FAA advisory circular, AC 23-27, that allows us to use substituet materials to maintain our airplanes, certified prior to Jan 1, 1980, as long as it maintains fit, form and function of the original unit. What this means is that if you can find a FAA Form 337, Major Repair and Alteration form, that was field approved from the FAA, that is approval to do the same thing on your airplane, using that 337 as your approval data.

I just finished an IA renewal program where the head guy from FAA Headquarters was there and explained it.

Dave
N302A

[N5ZX]

skymstr02,
That is exceptionally valuable information!!!
I wish I had that in August....when we spent 5 WEEKS waiting for the local FSDO to approve mounting HID taxi and landing lights in my nose. We tried citing an identical mounting in a P210 but our delightful fifedom said that they were no longer allowed to boot-strap approval based on a prior field approval...everything had to be specific to THAT airplane.
What a big steamy pile of (crud).
I guarantee I will be citing that AD verrrry frequently. Thank you!!!!!

Scotty,
Im very eager for the EDM-960. I think it will be well worth the wait.
However, be careful "waiting". The promise of three months in terms of avionics launch dates usually translates to 18 months in our world. And I think the fuel LEVEL gauge is on the Minimum Equipment List for the aircraft certificate. If Im right, you gotta replace the gauge with some other fuel level indicator before you can legally fly again. I dont know if the shadin computer will meet the need.
Im not an a&p and I dont wanna come accross as a S---House lawyer.....I precursered all that with I think" and "If I'm right...."
My tips tanks feed directly into the fuel distribution tree for each engine with overflow going back into the main tanks. I use them as emergency fuel only. If my engine stumbles, or if I get the low fuel indication on the digital fual level gauges, the first thing I do is flip the switch for my tip tanks.....that gives me guaranteed fuel to the engine, buying me at least an hour....but I immediate find a suitable "nearest" to fuel up again. The only other time they are less than full is when I'm taxiing after landing. I hit the tip tanks to feed fuel into the engines/mains just to keep things fresh. I think I mentioned I have a fuel paranoia. CNN spent a week talking about the last time I ran out of fuel....I dont plan to make it a habbit (I used up all my good karma credits on that one).

Cole

[N5ZX]

skymstr02,
That is exceptionally valuable information!!!
I wish I had that in August....when we spent 5 WEEKS waiting for the local FSDO to approve mounting HID taxi and landing lights in my nose. We tried citing an identical mounting in a P210 but our delightful fifedom said that they were no longer allowed to boot-strap approval based on a prior field approval...everything had to be specific to THAT airplane.
What a big steamy pile of (crud).
I guarantee I will be citing that AD verrrry frequently. Thank you!!!!!

Scotty,
Im very eager for the EDM-960. I think it will be well worth the wait.
However, be careful "waiting". The promise of three months in terms of avionics launch dates usually translates to 18 months in our world. And I think the fuel LEVEL gauge is on the Minimum Equipment List for the aircraft certificate. If Im right, you gotta replace the gauge with some other fuel level indicator before you can legally fly again. I dont know if the shadin computer will meet the need.
Im not an a&p and I dont wanna come accross as a S---House lawyer.....I precursered all that with I think" and "If I'm right...."
My tips tanks feed directly into the fuel distribution tree for each engine with overflow going back into the main tanks. I use them as emergency fuel only. If my engine stumbles, or if I get the low fuel indication on the digital fual level gauges, the first thing I do is flip the switch for my tip tanks.....that gives me guaranteed fuel to the engine, buying me at least an hour....but I immediate find a suitable "nearest" to fuel up again. The only other time they are less than full is when I'm taxiing after landing. I hit the tip tanks to feed fuel into the engines/mains just to keep things fresh. I think I mentioned I have a fuel paranoia. CNN spent a week talking about the last time I ran out of fuel....I dont plan to make it a habbit (I used up all my good karma credits on that one).

Cole