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#1
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Help & Advice on an avionics upgrade path
Hello All :-)
Some of you may remember from an earlier thread that i'm in the process of a very deep restoration of a P337H Riley Rocket that I pulled out of a salvage yard in the Netherlands last year. The aircraft has been re-registered on the N-Registry and will be under Part 91 rules. We're about 18 months away (i'd guess) from starting an avionics fit out and I wanted to start the research process into how exactly to go about it. What's my target Other than my incredibly analogue Yak 52, the other aircraft that I fly a lot is a Diamond DA42 which is G1000 and GFC700 equipped. It's an extremely powerful tool and i'm a big fan of the Garmin ecosystem. In an ideal world, i'd like to put in the aircraft: - 2x 10.5" G600TXI's - 1x GTN750 XI - EIS TXI (+7" display) - GFC700 - G5 AI/DI + All the other associated remote transponder and radio and interactive (flight stream) gubbins. I'm not unrealistic around the cost of such things :-) However I just wanted some advice as to whether you think that it's practical to do this sort of thing under field approval/337 (especially the GFC) or whether i'm being a bit unrealistic. I also need to find somebody to do this with us in Europe (South East of the UK) as we don't necessarily have a local FAA office we can work with :-D Before somebody ask's 'What's your mission and why do you want all this stuff' For completeness... :-) I have a hole in my diary in about 3 years time where i'm planning to take a year out and travel the world in this aircraft. I'd like to bring it back across to the United States, do some of the big fly in's with you fine people and then go down into South America. On a day to day basis i'd use this aircraft to fly between the UK & France (about an 1.5h each way in the air) Any thoughts or advice? Kind Regards 
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#3
12-02-20, 04:45 PM
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No se si es el mejor juego
I’m on my 3rd 337 (69D, 73G, 77G) and have been happy with the factory autopilot (if not working well there are still shops that fix them and can do it with just the units, off the aircraft). If field approval is an issue, it’s something to consider, plus it will save you money. In my current aircraft I have a Garmin GTN650 (touch) and a GTX335 ADS-B along with my Cessna autopilot, so some new and some old. The autopilot has served me well on several very long trips, including one from Miami to Idaho, almost at the other extreme of the country. Perhaps others might jump in here and share views on this, especially if they disagree.
Ernie
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#5
12-14-20, 05:04 PM
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Autopilots Central
Looking at the options, it would be $25k++ ish to put in a new autopilot.
The airplane is soooooo stable I hardly use it at all, but... I took out the servos (wing panels), the brain (over rear most seats), and control head (by knee), wire tied their airframe connectors so they couldn't hang anything up, and sent to autopilots central to bench debug the whole thing. About $5k. Works like new. Pretty much the only thing I ever use it for is straight and level, with bearing and altitude hold. Mostly just to play with it. Simply tweak heading knob until the projected 50mi track vector on my GPS overlies the next place I want to be, and presto.
__________________
David Wartofsky Potomac Airfield 10300 Glen Way Fort Washington, MD 20744
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#6
12-15-20, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
__________________
P337H Sn: 0318. Under restoration
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#7
12-15-20, 08:56 PM
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Using an original 400A autopilot I believe is not authorized with the Garmin WAAS navigators for LPV approaches. My understanding is the 400B is approved for LPV.
Dan
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#8
12-22-20, 11:22 AM
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I'd also like to lean on fellow Skymaster owners for advice on basic upgrades. VFR pilot looking to finish off Instrument.
I don't anticipate flying in heavy soup with low ceilings. Really just to get out, maybe on top with relatively decent weather at destination..or just won't go. Plan to set pretty moderate personal minimums another words. 1973 "G" model, currently has: Stec 55x w CWS GNC300XL KN64DME KR87 ADF 2 MX-170B with KI209A Glideslopes KT76A transponder with Avionix Tail beacon Strikefinder Eaton Annunciation push switches to control what feeds autopilot, glideslopes, etc. I use Stratus 2 and Fore-flight Thinking for training (and usefulness) to add Waas/GPS capability. Am looking at adding one of following: Garmin GPS175 Garmin GNC355 Garmin GNX375 Probably a G5 HSI or AV30 Have thought about a used 430 or 530, but for what they cost along with installation thought it might be better to go with a unit mentioned above. Obviously can dump the GNC300 and tail beacon if need be and likely the ADF. All input appreciated  )
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#9
12-23-20, 01:28 PM
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Are you planning to keep the plane for 5 years or more? Just get the GTN-750 and be done with it. You will never be sorry that you did except the day you write the check, after that you will only have a smile on your face that you bought the box that does more tomorrow when you really need it. As we grow with our airplanes our experience level accelerates and we will wish we had paid all that installation money for more capability than we had originally thought we would need. You have a very capable airplane so why compromise the ability today when you will need that capability tomorrow. Yes the hardware will cost more but the installation cost won't change much. The GTN-750 is just the best box out there for our airplane and you will grow into this unit within a couple years and be able to say that you are so glad you bought more and not less.
Also the Avidyne boxes are awesome too and did not mean to not include them. Just saw that you were talking Garmin so ran with that. Bottom line, buy more than you need today as you will want it tomorrow
__________________
Herb R Harney 1968 337C Flying the same Skymaster for 47 years
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#10
12-23-20, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
-J
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#11
12-24-20, 11:06 AM
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The last update of 4XXW SFMS, 190-00356-03 Rev. G, indicates that there are no autopilots authorized for LPV approaches (attached image). Not sure you could use the info posted for the 5XX SFMS if you didn't have one on board.
That said, Sandel had a software update that would allow my 3308 to do it. So, I purchased it, it wasn't cheap, and I had the avionics shop install it and do some hard-wire changes that it required. The update also provided the autopilot integration to fly it. As a note, Sandel might have bit the dust in '20. They were walloped by everything that happened this year to include the wildfires in CA. They no longer are answering their phones or emails. I bought the annual DB update for the 3308's memory; yeah, it has a Jepp DB of US fixes in it. The shop had a problem with the date range of the software, and it would not load. At least the annual update is cheap. Anyway, my 400A actually does a heck of a job flying an LPV approach. Spot on. My airplane was just up to APC for a problem, it was the attitude indicator, not the autopilot, and the test pilot let it fly the approaches to minimums as part of his profile. As a note, it is worth taking the airplane to APC in Tulsa. They ended up flying my airplane twice with their pilot and techs, and the tweaks were worth it. They have the equipment the I suspect no one else has. The airplane is flown through a test profile; in the Skymaster's case, there is a tech in the front with their pilot, and there is a tech in the back seat with the seat laid down, making adjustments to the box in the overhead. While they are doing this, there is a great place to eat 171' away; Evelyn's Soul Food. Jimmie Cricket! Tulsa is directly on our Victoria to St. Paul grandkid flight. Evelyn's will be a mandatory "fuel" stop north and southbound. Me personally, I don't have a problem letting it fly one. My 400A is always in top shape, I know how to monitor a system and an approach, and my 20K hour plus background is heavy with both IFR and LNAV operations. Of course, look at the Terrain Proximity notes on the same attachment. You're not supposed to use it either. Right, that's one of the reasons you bought it and maintain the updates. Garmin is covering the butt. The difference between the 400A and B is that the A uses chain/sprocket drives, and the B uses torque motors. The B flies the airplane with input pressure just like you would by hand. I'm not sure the C337 ever had any B installations. I briefly considered going to the glass, but that means an autopilot change as well. With the STEC 55 being the only option, it's not for me. I've flown a bunch of different airplanes professionally since I retired from the airlines. I see a lot of inop STECs. The three STEC installations I've been flying this year are all inop (all 55s). I've talked to three shops this year about going to the glass, which means that I leave the 400A. All three have told me to plan on doubling the autopilot's cost to cover the installation labor. That is not out of line with what I've experienced with other installations I've had done over the last two years. I keep a spare, rebuilt attitude indicator on the shelf; that's the real key to the 400A. APC has prepped it, but I will take the airplane up there to adjust if it is put in use. I've got a bunch of stuff to be done going into my annual in a couple of months, but I'm not going to go to glass in my airplane. Too much $$$ for an airframe that is working towards 50 years old, that's me. If everything craps out, or I feel the need for glass, I'm going to buy a used late-model Seneca V with all the bells and whistles; FIKI, radar, and airconditioned and be done with it. What's weird is that in the late '70s, I flew a 337G, P337G, and a PA34-200T Seneca II professional during the same time period. The 337G was flown on a pipeline patrol from the TX/Mexico border into AL weekly. The P337G was flown in TX and Mexico, and the PA34 in TX, NM, CO, and Mexico. I liked all three. I guess I'm back to my roots. Last edited by patrolpilot : 12-24-20 at 11:17 AM.
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#12
12-25-20, 12:14 PM
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I always thought those Garmin AFMS entries were "checkboxes" and the installer goes through the generic AFMS and tailors it to your installation be checking the various limitation boxes. No checkmark in the box means the limitation didn't apply to your installation. I'll read up more on it.
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#13
02-04-21, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
The Garmin G5 is certified for the Skymaster, and most light twins. Not that I'm a Garmin fanboy by any means, but Garmin wins this one (as far as twins go!).
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#14
02-04-21, 01:28 PM
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#15
02-04-21, 10:12 PM
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I have a Uavionics AV-30 and a couple years ago asked them to include Skymaster on their AML list when they went for their certification. I got an email from them advising skymaster was approved before I took delivery of my certified AV-30 and have spoken with them throughout certification process.
However, in terms of driving legacy autopilots discussed on this thread, it is of no help.
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