337 ownership

[sonyalex]

Hello Everyone,

My name is Alex and I have a question for you owners of the 337.

I currently own a 2007 Cirrus SR20gts I have 280 hrs and will have my certificate 2yrs in January 2013. I will hopefully start my IFR training in the next 3 months.

I really love the 337 because of my mission. I have been twin crazy for a while and my wife and I have a place in AZ. I live in a suburb nw of Chicago and based at KPWK.

I feel the 337 has all the pieces I’m looking for I don’t need to tell you folks what they are because you know.

Thing is this everybody I talk to about this plane tells me I must be crazy to even think of owning one because it’s plagued by maintenance problems beyond belief. (you should see what I had to deal with in the Cirrus)

The reason why I’m thinking of one again is because I met a mechanic that absolutely loves them and the 3 or 4 he maintains are in great condition he said. Once you have the bird up to snuff he said it’s no different from anything else he said. With good maintenance you will be fine. Of course I told this to a friend and he said yeah he can’t wait to charge you to fix it. WHATEVER….

My instructor who has over 7k hours and all kinds of ratings didn’t have a bad thing to say about it in fact he loves the plane and has 250 hrs in one.

So my questions
What are peoples experiences with the plane as far as maintenance?
Maybe your experience after you bought your plane and then once it was where your wanted it what was your experience then?
I like pressurization so what extra maint. am I looking at there.
Turbo would be a plus especially because my plan is to fly west for the winters.
If there is anything else you would like to add that would be great.

Thank you all in advance,
Alex Kottoulas

[Ernie Martin]

Heed the advice of the mechanic and the instructor. If you haven't done it already, go to the second thread on this Message Board, click on the first message, and read the paragraph which starts "If you are considering buying a Skymaster....". That paragraph has a link to a page that addresses exactly your questions and then a summary of what's in the link. Incidentally, I'm an aerospace/mechanical engineer (MS, Caltech) on my second Skymaster.

A more current discussion on maintenance costs may be found at http://www.337skymaster.com/messages...?t=2703&page=2. This thread is on Skymaster Valuation, but on this second page the discussion meandered into operating and maintenance costs, and members gave the actual costs they have been incurring. The discussion on these costs starts with the third message on that page (edasmus' actual operating costs) and ends with Paul Sharp's message further down that same page. Two things are worth noting. First, there is a wide range of costs, with some members citing Annuals (including parts) costing $25,000 while others pay around $2,000. Second, there is a link on one of the messages to a separate page where members were asked by the then Administrator to share the costs of their Annuals. I caution you to read this material carefully, because some costs include engine/prop reserves while others don't, and "operating costs" may include fuel, hangar, insurance, etc.

Ernie Martin

[sonyalex]

Thanks Ernie just the kind of information I was looking for.

[edasmus]

Hi Alex,

I have been operating my Skymaster for 10 years and 700 hours out of Aurora, IL (ARR). I would be happy to sit down with you and share all my maintenance experiences with the airplane. I will show you actual numbers on the actual invoices. Almost all of my maintenance service has been handled by Lumanair, Inc based at Aurora.

I believe ALL airplanes are expensive to operate. I do not believe the Skymaster is any different to operate then any other comparable 40 year old twin. My experience has been that people who make the types of negative comments about the Skymaster that you reference, do not speak from personal experience.

Good Luck,

Ed

[sonyalex]

Ed, that would be great to get together to go over the cost. Just let me know how you would like me to contact you and we can meet in the near future.

Thanks,
Alex

[edasmus]

Alex,

My email is edasmus3@aol.com.

Ed

[Ernie Martin]

Alex, I think meeting with Ed is a wise idea. Nothing like getting it first-hand from a present owner. I am concerned, however, that Ed's maintenence costs, based on his prior postings on the link I provided earlier, are on the high side. I think that there are steps that can be taken to reduce maintenance costs significantly WITHOUT adversely affecting reliability. If you read my posting on that link, I have been able to keep Annuals to an average of about $2,200 per year, including parts and biennial transponder tests. When I add other repairs done between Annuals and engine/prop reserves (for 100 hrs of flight per year), my maintenance expenses total about $6,000 per year. In my posting I tell you the steps I take to achieve these numbers -- and it's NOT by cutting corners, because virtually all of my flights are over water and in the majority of those I'm carrying my family.

Thought you should be exposed to all sides of this issue.

Ernie Martin

[edasmus]

Fear not Ernie....I will share my experience with Alex and why I think it costs what it does. And I will also share other options that I think can save him money without cutting corners. I'm rather "chuckling" here as I write this because I had a feeling you would be concerned.

Ed

[sonyalex]

Let me start out by saying thxs 4 all the great info thus far.
Through one of Ernie’s links provided it took me to a thread where guys were talking about hard numbers for their annuals. This was very informative. A kinda what to expect from a stand point of owning a twin. Would you believe me if I told you I was very comfortable with what I read, it’s true & I’ll tell u why.
I’ve always wanted to fly but didn’t think it would ever happen, but you grow up u start to well and u pick up this hobby which is not cheap but for me I don’t have season tixs to sporting events, I don’t belong to a country club, I pretty much keep to myself so this was perfect 4 me.
I joined a flying club which had ONE PLANE a late 2004 piper archer w/glass. The club was young but had 25 flying members u can imagine how often I was able to get up in the air w/ur work schedule and family life. Houston we have a problem.
2 other club members and I bought a 2007 cirrus SR20gts with 375hrs on the tach. Boy was I excited and 8 months left on the factory warranty & thx goodness 4 that.
Not to bore u w/2 many details but here r a couple of numbers from my end on the cirrus. Annual from 2010 was $9848 of wish we only had to pay $5713 b/c of a warranty item, a nose landing gear assembly kit. Like how I said only. Then the comment I make to my partners is that it’s divided by 3 so I can live w/the price. In 2011 it was $9287 which $2837 was for new mags.
Wisconsin Aviation did these 2 annuals, and since the very beginning we have had the services a Mike Busch’s savvy maintenance.
2012 well that’s another story, we had an IRAN done last October because of copper in the oil analysis that we were keeping an eye on. We still an issue w/something so it’s @ G&N 4 the repair. This is another long story not to bore anyone here. They will get the ferry permit & send it home so the guys on the field can do the annual not Wisconsin Aviation this time. G&N still r not clear if they fixed the problem tho.
So my feeling is this, I feel like I already pay a maintenance bill almost like the price of a excellent running twin.
My friend owns a Cessna 310 every yr his annual is right around 9k & his plane is in tip top shape. 3 guys in that partnership and they r not involved w/any doings during the annual. Another friend of mine in KC owns a 310 but he is much more intimate w/the aircraft & takes the week off of work to assist in the opening & closing like a few of u do here, so his annual is $2500 if they don’t find anything wrong.
So if I have 3 owners in a nice 337 I can live w/this type of bill. I too don’t want to cut corners b/c like u guys my family will be in this plane. My answer when something is questionable is change it.
I also am in the camp of paying a bit more 4 a good plane then something that needs a lot of work and from time to time something does come up.
Ed I will b in contact w/u.
Sorry guys I abbreviate everywhere I can.
Alex

[WebMaster]

I like abrevs, keeps the byte count down

[JimC]

Originally Posted by larry bowdish

I like abrevs, keeps the byte count down

It's a generational thing. I would wager sonyalex is younger than most of us.

Good luck with the 3-way partnership. I don't know where you live, but finding twin partners is a lot tougher than finding single partners. Also, many of us find that by the time our mission requirements call for a twin, they also call for complete availability of the aircraft. Finding out someone else has it reserved for a week to fly 1.5 hours away doesn't sit as well as it used to. It's just some food for thought.

[sonyalex]

Ur right Jim I think I am younger than most. I’m 42.
I live in a NW suburb of Chicago actually 15 minutes NW of KPWK.
One of my partners still wants to continue to be partners if we go ahead with a twin in the future he doesn’t want to own it alone.
Ur right about mission req. I’m @ the point where I do want 2 own something all by myself. Especially In a couple of yrs where I’m going to have more free time. I believe I will travel more not to mention possibly spending more time in AZ.
So far it hasn’t been an issue but I believe it may in the future.
The thing w/my partner is he has a summer home in Door County, that 1.5 hour trip u talk about and mine in AZ 4 the winter. That does help a little I guess.

Alex

[hharney]

Now that the economy has plagued the piston twins you should be able to buy a nice 337 for 1/3 share of a Cirrus. Own it yourself and use when you need it. That way you know who flew it last and what condition it is flown. No questions. Happy pilot.

My wife's office is in Buffalo Grove. Sounds like you might be close by.......

[sonyalex]

It will probably more then likely be on my own.

I am very close to her office. If u were to drive 7 minutes west up Lake Cook Rd u hit the suburb of Deer Park that's where I live. I'm walking distance to the Deer Park mall I'm sure she is familiar w/the location.

If your ever in the area we can meet if u like. There r a number of places to grab a bite in Deer Park.

Alex

[brian]

Originally Posted by sonyalex

The reason why I’m thinking of one again is because I met a mechanic that absolutely loves them and the 3 or 4 he maintains are in great condition he said. Once you have the bird up to snuff he said it’s no different from anything else he said. With good maintenance you will be fine.

Alex, after 6 yrs of 337 ownership I agree with your mechanic. My 337 is the first plane I ever owned, prior to that I did clubs and rentals. My instructor with 30000 hrs in everything thought I was nuts because he had heard all the 337 "stories" regarding maintenance. But after flying mine he really likes it.

It is a complex twin and maintenance will be as costly as most other complex twins. The only thing that was more difficult or costly on mine compared to other twins thus far was replacing the rear mags which was difficult due to lack of firewall clearance (there is a firewall maintenance door mod for that.) My annuals have been in the $3500 range, except the last two have been high due to a prop overhaul at each one.

Took a trip last weekend to Yellowstone, got about 10 mpg LOP, (135-140 KTAS, 13-14 gph), and all the time flying over the moutains was glad to have the peace of mind of the extra engine as compared to a 182 or 172 etc. Also, I appreciate having 420 hp performance when needed. Mine has STOL and routinely take off and land in 1200 feet.

Find a good 337 with good maintenance history and with a mechanic who is familiar them you will be fine.

Brian