Old Engine = Runout Engine ?

[Ernie Martin]

In addition to the comments on my first message on this thread, here's more info.

For purposes of price, yes, you should assume they are runouts and negotiate accordingly. But the price for both engines seem far too high. If all AD's are complied with (magnetos, for instance), then I think you might be able to get away with less -- maybe $40K to $50K -- even if you need VAR cranks. I don't know if a heavy engine case is needed, but even then the $60K seems high.

Given what you say (top overhaul, good compression, no metal in the oil, flown regular) you might be able to get a couple of hundred hours more, maybe on both engines, more likely on one engine. That could be a couple of years of service.

Ernie

[WebMaster]

Oh, right, Kevin is correct. Let me add, that to get a reman, you have to have a core, and if you have catastrophic failure, you lose the value of the core.

So, it just goes downhill from there. Also, many shops would not consider passing, annual, a plane with engines that old, with that many hours past TBO.

[hewilson]

The plane has King digital avionics installed in 1999. The props were O/Hed 330 and 600 hrs ago. I like the low TTAF and the avionics but getting two new engines, which it sounds like I would really need to do if I'm going to fly my son in it, would put me over the market value of the plane.

Now, if one intends to hang on to an investment, paying over market price is not necessarily wrong. It becomes a labor of love if you will at that point. Its like people who restore vintage cars. I think I will pass on this one for now but it has been on the market for several months already so it might still be there after I shop around a bit more.

Hugh

[Richard]

I'd fly it. Sounds like they weren't cheap on parts or repairs. I'd fly it and just have it checked out every 100 hours. (compression, oil analysis). I wouldn't expect full TBO out of them, but some use.

Think of it this way too. When you do get new engines... you have one sweet ride.


Richard

[WebMaster]

we bought ours with the front engine at 1750TT, and small metal parts in the strainer. REplaced the engine at purchase.

[Paul Sharp]

When I bought my '67 T337B, it had one run-out engine and another at about 500 hours. It is deiced and had been well maintained, with King digital radios (155's). So it was in pretty good shape except for the out of TBO engine. The paint and interior were average+, and I paid $41,000 for it 7 years ago. It cost me $13K to overhaul the engine (wrote it right into the loan from the start), and spent another $2000 on little things (there seem to always be some "surprises" even if a plane has been reasonably maintained).

It costs more these days to get an overhaul, but I agree that the reman price, though a good correct number, is costly if you want to find a good overhaul shop. But that doesn't take into account the VAR cranks, which might make remans the better choice. I got lucky because even though my engine needed the VAR crank, the O/H shop found one for $2000 (that was included in the $13K overhaul cost).

I don't think I'd be willing to pay more than $40K max, and then probably very squeamishly. Even if you want to argue with Kevin's numbers, it's hard to argue with his logic that you can look around and find a good one that doesn't have runout engines for the kind of money you're going to unavoidably spend during the same time period, so why take the risk? I think sometimes sellers over-value their aircraft, hoping to find someone willing to take the plunge. Unfortunately they too often do so.

FWIW...

[hewilson]

On Trade-A-Plane.com, they have a value estimator from the National Aircraft Appraisers Association. According to them, 2/3s of 336s should be valued between $35,200 and $55,000.

Plugging in this particular aircraft's TTAF, engine and prop times, airframe, exterior and interior conditions - as desribed by the owner - and avionics; assuming all ADS are complied with and no maintenance problems other than the engines, the NAAA valuator places the value of this plane at $40,500.

At that price, after putting in factory remans, I would be into the plane for roughly $100,000. Now, if I were to need to resell the plane, I'd be up Shit Creek. On the other hand, that is a whole helluva lot cheaper than just about any other twin on the market with 2 new engines.

All that having been said, the seller tells me that if he can't get what he feels the plane is worth - and that currently stands at the $55K figure - he would rather keep it than "give it away." He doesdn't need it that badly. THAT is the definition of the bottom of the market. When keeping the item is more valuable than selling, that is the bottom. But only for that particular seller and only at that particular time. Things change so we will see.

[Guy Paris]

There was a Cinderella like story here at my field. I
first noticed the tired old looking 336 about 15 + years
ago. She was a sad looking sight to be hold. A prop
missing, tires soft and sinking into the turf and acid rain
stains streaking her once graceful lines from the harsh
New England winters. At that time I never saw her run
let alone fly. Lo and behold about (4) years ago give or
take a few, She was hauled out of her ruts and into a
maintenance hangar. I observed with wonder, was she
going to be trashed or what. All the cowls were removed,
the engines looked at closely and repaired as necessary,
the fuel cell in the booms were split and had to be repaired
or? Next thing you new she was running! I for sure thought
the fans were trash. Then off to the paint shop on the field
and striped of her tattered clothes and a spiffy new applied
to her bare skin. Then some nice radios, 430’s I think and
to top it off A New Palace! A hangar of her own. I hear her
flying now but not a whole lot. Fishing trips up north in Maine
somewhere. Will the engines continue to be ok? Time will tell.
The irony, the same owner thru all of this.
Guy, the old 72 driver….

[Ernie Martin]

And Guy's story supports my experience on my first 337 (see my first posting on this thread), where the old bird had sat for like 10 years, was inspected and repaired -- but engines were not overhauled -- and gave me trouble-free service for the 2 years I owned it.

I've been reluctant to disclose what I paid for my current 1973 337G, but finally decided that it might help others. I bought it in May 2002 for $71,000 with 2,500 TT, mid-life engines, above average interior and exterior, a superb suite of avionics (including IFR-certified GPS and Stormscope), a working 400 autopilot, no damage history, and the last five years maintained meticulously at OSU by the FBO run by Ohio State University (where the FBO takes care of the University's fleet as well as private planes). It had a fresh annual at purchase time. Although a small point, it has a polished burl-wood instrument panel with Ultravision blue/green lighting over each instrument. This panel is gorgeous, having been custom made for this aircraft.

The key was waiting. I looked at lots of aircraft. The seller of this aircraft (which was used mostly for business) wanted more, but the aircraft could no longer handle the passengers and loads he had to carry, so he had already bought a larger plane. He had no further use for the plane. Had to sell it. I was lucky. Hope you all get to see it in OKC in April.

Ernie

[hewilson]

That is indeed very helpful information Ernie. A low time airframe with mid-life engines at $71,000. Now, comparing that to the 336 I am looking at, asking price $55,000 sounds a bit too high. Though it also has a low time airframe and good avionics package (King 155s with 2 GSs, graphic display type moving map GPS) it has runout engines and is a 336, not a 337. Now, for various reasons discussed in another thread, I am looking specifically for a 336. But the reality is, the market for them is much smaller and much less actively traded so one must be careful to pay a good price.