337 for Garmin installation

bede1@msn.com · #1 07-31-04, 11:48 PM

Wondering if anyone out there has a Garmin 400/500 installed in their aircraft andwould be willing to share/sell a copy of the 337 for the installation?

(Mistake: STC not 337)

SkyKing · #2 08-01-04, 01:41 AM

My, my... is it really THAT bad that you can't get an avionics guy to work with you and help prepare a 337 for YOUR SPECIFIC airplane, with the weight & balance changes, the current (ampere) needs of the new gear, etc??? Shouldn't be TOO difficult to arrange. (I note you're an electrical engineer.)

Talk about being HIGHLY illegal and totally WRONG!

Sorry, but this barks up the wrong tree for me!!!

SkyKing

bede1@msn.com · #3 08-01-04, 07:31 AM

My mistake, I meant a STC not a 337. The only reason I am asking is that my avionics guy says that if there is a previous installation of this equipment in this type aircraft the paper work is much simpler to do. It would show that this equipment has already been approved. No reason to be sarcastic about it

SkyKing · #4 08-01-04, 02:45 PM

Not being "sarcastic" at all... just the FACTS. In legal reality, the original question you posed initiated some VERY HIGHLY ILLEGAL things. But even 'sharing' or 'selling' a copy of the STC also raises some distinct legal problems, if not ethical and moral reasons, in and of themselves. The first word that comes to mind is infringement on someone else's property rights.

Good say sir.

SkyKing

kevin · #5 08-01-04, 02:57 PM

In my experience it is common for a shop to want to see a copy of a previously approved 337 for an installation. The shop can then use verbage (basis for approval) that it knows was acceptable to at least one FAA inspector somewhere, while changing the airplane specific data that Skyking mentioned.

I think your were right the first time, I think a 337 is what you want. Perhaps there are STCs now for Garmin installations in Skymasters, if so you may be able to get/purchase a copy from Garmin.

Kevin

bede1@msn.com · #6 08-01-04, 10:59 PM

I recently talked with the FAA Certification personal at the EAA Convention and I quote, " The best and easiest way to proceed is obtain a STC/337 from an already approved installation and use that information and approval to file my 337. It will speed things along and reduce the paper work." Also if you read FAA bulliten 94-32A it says the same thing. If you look realistically at it anything you install in an aircraft today is working off someone elses previous approval.

kevin · #7 08-01-04, 11:58 PM

I think Skyking took you literally. You can't just Xerox form, white out the name and N-number, and use it for your aircraft, which is what I think he thought you meant. What your mechanic or radio shop *can* do is to look at someone elses 337 form, and use it to copy much of the verbage for a *new* 337 form they prepare for you.

For example, on request, CPA will send you a copy of a 337 form that was used to approve changing to the self-balancing regulators instead of the completely independent voltage regulators that are stock. With this 337 comes all of the engineering information that was used to justify the approval- drawings of the installation, schematic, etc. Your A&P would have to review this 337, and go through all of the checks to make sure that he could do a proper installation of these regulators on your particular aircraft and prepare a new 337 with updated weight and balance for your aircraft, etc etc using the engineering data from the CPA 337 copy, and then get a field approval from an FAA inspector on *your* 337 form.

An STC would be even easier if available, because it would include all the paperwork that you would need. You get those from a manufacturer or modifier, and frequently they charge for them to recover the cost of the development that went into them. So you can't just copy the STC form and call it good as far as I understand it, because you are not the STC holder. Perhaps Garmin has an STC that might help you, but I doubt it. There has been talk about making it possible to install some or all IFR GPS systems without getting a field approval for each one, and your avionics shop should be up on the details for that, perhaps there is in STC now, or they have changed the rules some other way.

I hope someone has a 337 form that they don't mind sharing a copy of, as it may very well be helpful to your shop, and whoever has the copy paid the shop to do the work, so they certainly have the right to copy it. 337 forms are public record anyway.

But on the other hand, you are still going to have to pay your shop, and a DER if necessary (depending on whether you have a P337 or not) to ensure that all is right for *your* particular installation, so the 337 copy may not save any effort at all really.

Good luck,

Kevin

Dave Underwood · #8 08-03-04, 12:21 AM

I am in the final stages of an IFR approval for a Garmin 530/430 plus other stuff on my Reims P337. This includes the 8110-3 for the antenna install with a required doubler riveted in place plus all the calcs for the DER. The DER was interested in hoop strength and I can give you the calculations plus the name of the DER who provided the 8110-3. With a P you must have an 8110-3 for the antenna install as a BTW.

We have the 337's approved for VFR flight and my IA is now doing the second set of 337's for IFR approval. I am hoping the final approvals will be signed off within a couple of weeks. The challenge will be the final sign off by my local FAA office, but they have been great in the past so I am hoping this will go ok as well.

If you are going to do this, read the new AC on GPS installs and approvals as it tells you in detail all you have to know. My advice is get involved as it will make the process faster.

An important note is that although my plane is on the N reg, the plane is a reims 337. It has a different type certificate than US built 337's. My experience with the FAA is that they know these are the same plane, but it does have implications.

In summary it has not been an easy process, but I am willing to share it with you. Drop me an e-mail at dunderwood@torex.co.uk. I am travelling until 16th August, but can reply in detail after that.

Regards - Dave

hharney · #9 08-05-04, 08:58 PM

I INSTALLED A 530 LAST MARCH AND THE RADIO SHOP SUBMITTED THE PAPERWORK TO THE LOCAL FSDO. I STILL HAVE NOT RECEIVED MY IFR CERTIFICATION. IT'S BEEN 4 MONTHS! I CAN'T BELIEVE IT COULD TAKE THIS LONG. THE RADIO SHOP TELLS ME THAT THERE IS SOME SORT OF PROBLEM WITH AN OVERLOAD OF PAPERWORK THAT HAS TO BE PROCESSED. I HAVEN'T REALLY BEEN BUGGING THE RADIO SHOP FOR ANSWERS BUT I DO CALL THEM EVERY COUPLE WEEKS TO CHECK THE PROGRESS.

HAS ANYONE ELSE EXPERIENCED THIS RECENTLY? I KNOW THAT OTHERS HAVE JUST INSTALLED THESE UNITS BECAUSE THERE IS ANOTHER THREAD ON THIS SUBJECT. IT'S REALLY ANNOYING AFTER PAYING ALL THE MONEY FOR THE SPECIAL TOYS AND YOU CAN'T USE THEM FOR THEIR FULL BENEFIT. SURE IS A NICE UNIT THOUGH.

ABOUT THE 337, E-MAIL ME AND I WILL LOOK AT THE POSSIBILTY OF SHARING WHAT YOU MAY NEED.

Jerry De Santis · #10 08-06-04, 01:00 PM

Herb, It is my understanding that you can still use the 530 for enroute IFR but until you get the paper work auth., you can't use it for approach IFR. Is that correct?
Jerry

hharney · #11 08-06-04, 05:26 PM

NO THAT IS NOT CORRECT. WITHOUT THE FAA CERTIFICATION YOU CANNONT LEGALLY FLY ENROUTE OR APPROACH.

Kevin B · #12 08-07-04, 08:08 AM

Hey guys we dropping our P337 off Sunday at Mayday in GRR for a 430 install. Are you telling me that we will have to wait for the FSDO to approve it before I can use it??
Kevin B

Jerry De Santis · #13 08-07-04, 10:59 AM

Yap! Can't fly legal IFR until approved. It appears, at least here in our region, it is taking months to get approval. Better check with Mayday about it and see what they say.
Jerry

hharney · #14 08-07-04, 04:46 PM

KEVIN

ARE YOU ALREADY IN THE SYSTEM FOR INSTALL AT MAYDAY?
THEY HAVE BEEN BACKED UP FOR INSTALLS LAST I CHECKED
I TALKED WITH TIM ON FRIDAY AND I WAS SUPPOSE TO HAVE MY CERT IN THE MAIL BUT THAT'S STILL 4 MONTHS TO GET IT.

CHECK WITH MARK HISLOP, HE HAD AN INSTALL DONE IN FT WAYNE AT MID AMERICA AVIONICS. SOUNDED LIKE HE SAVED SOME BUCKS OVER WHAT I PAID AT MAYDAY.

BUT I AM REALLY HAPPY WITH THE INSTALL AND FINISH PRODUCT MAYDAY DOES A SUPERB JOB. I KNOW IT'S NOT THEIR FAULT ABOUT THE PAPERS BUT GUILTY BY ASSOCIATION.

CHECK THE THREAD ON PAGE 3 TITLED "GOING INTO DEBT"

Kevin B · #15 08-07-04, 05:09 PM

Yes we are on their work sch. for next week