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  #1  
Old 09-21-18, 11:08 AM
Skywalker Skywalker is offline
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Angry Pre Buy Check List Do Not Buy With Out This

I have been looking for Pressurized P337,post 1973 model and invested some money and time, compiled a complete pre buy check list, i can tell you that , with out ;Pre buy inspection it can be huge financial disaster, and also i think this is the best investment we can do , , its vital you get the professional shop, not just a free lance A & P ( no offend to them) ,but my experience has proved that not every one of them have the proper tools to perform this Job honestly and if they are not familiar with SkyMaster you can bet ,it will be a night mare for you later on. If big shop is equipped with well trained personal and tolls ,,although they do not have SkyMaster experience , they can /will do the pre buy as guided and inspect every thing , which the check list shows.
I have put a deposit on highly well equipped P337 ,2100 TT, 1979 ,With G-500, GTN 750, GTN 650, JPI 960, Speed Brakes, Vg Kit, Rear engine 80 SFRM, Front engine 960 with fresh Top overhaul, Fresh Props, Stec 55-x A.P ,Gear door kit, Pressurized Mags, Air Oil separator, flaps seal, new overhauled fuel tanks ,almost all the gadget you can have to Enhance the performance.
Aircraft extremely well maintained, (i should write here well paid for the maintenance , with blank cheques by owner ) , Owner is a Doctor and not flying a lot for last year , and the aircraft was maintained in perfect condition as per his Mechanic,s declaration ( translate into well paid too ) and has valid ;Annual and you guess what ????
2 weeks ago aircraft was sent to Brant Aero in Canada for the pre buy inspection and test flight, and the work shop made list of 132 ;snags;/squawks after physical inspection and its not the end, now they are studying the technical logs and we are afraid list will grow.Our Skymasters are complex machines and they are very old, and if u put pressurization, turbos, waster gate, and twin engines, it gives you ;great cocktail, and our lives and lives of our loved one, depends on these machines health, so any short cut in Pre buy gonna bite the next owner, as in Aviation we say, PAY IT NOW OR PAY IT LATER , BUT PAY YOU WILL , in the attachment pre buy check list,and if i missed some areas , pls do add in , in coming days i will post the Test flight report and pre Buy ;Report , So we and future owners can educate themselves and have as less troubles as possible.
FLY SAFE
Dennis Nazir
Poland
Poznan
Attached Files
File Type: pdf SKY MASTER PRE BUY CHECK LIST.pdf (32.7 KB, 38 views)

Last edited by hharney : 09-23-18 at 08:29 PM.
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  #2  
Old 09-21-18, 11:34 AM
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kilr4d kilr4d is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywalker View Post
its vital you get the professional shop
Yes. You must have a shop or mechanic that has LOTS of experience with the airframe you are buying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywalker View Post
...the work shop made list of 132 ;snags;/squawks after physical inspection and its not the end, now they are studying the technical logs and we are afraid list will grow.
Sorry to hear about the problems, but it doesn't matter the aircraft...the first inspection with a new mechanic is always BRUTAL. Can you share some of the snags/squawks with us? Anything major?

Also, what happens now? Will you be able renegotiate the price?
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Old 09-21-18, 01:08 PM
Skywalker Skywalker is offline
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pre buy inspection

John
i have agreement with Owner that aircraft will be sold with all the ; squawks; /snags sorted out, as i am paying a premium price.
Work shop has got green light from the Owner to go head and clean up the things
Lot of them are small issues, but some are real problems, and every thing will be sorted out before delivery across the Atlantic.
Dennis
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Old 09-23-18, 06:16 PM
rrolland rrolland is offline
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Dennis:

While I have not seen the list of defects that Brant Aero gave you, the number of items is not unusual. Our P337's/C 337's are at best 40 years old.

Large maintenance organizations apply a very high standard when inspecting the aircraft. When I owned my Rockwell Commander, which had had several annuals and worked well with no obvious defects, the fist large shop that took it in for an annual came up with around 8 full pages of snags. And that was for a normally aspirated, non-pressurized single...


Many of the items were small and very few could actually have been classified as serious i.e. impacting airworthiness.


They all got fixed and while the cost was substantial, I felt more confident after the whole process.


When I bought my P337, I took it to a large shop specialized in Cessna aircraft and they also came up with a long list. That is the way I wanted it. Find and fix what matters.


I have had a mainly snag free experience for the last two years, and the annual that I went through in July had a very short list of snags as expected.


I detailed some of those in a previous post. Recently, my Hobbs decided to stop working so I am getting that fixed. The panel got opened during the annual so there is a good chance that some connection got loosened while the mechanics were in there
.

So I feel your pain, but in the end, it is for the better....



Richard
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Old 09-24-18, 10:35 AM
Skywalker Skywalker is offline
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Smile Prebuy

Hello Richard
good to hear from you, i have sent you the snags list on your private mail, pls have a look and advise. also i want every thing to be fixed, minor or major one,overall plane is dream machine with all the bells.
and main reason i think is The mechanic who has been working on it ,did not know the plane well .
I will keep posted about the progress, as we are working with Owner to solve all the issues, Mean while we have decided to ferry via Azores ,Southern route due to winter coming ahead and also one Guy sent me a link of one incident where One Swedish guy ditched his SkyMaster in Atlantic in August, , as both his engines stopped working, we will never know what happened exactly, but there are lot of speculations , and ice formation in the fuel or oil lines is one of them. so we do not want to take any chance, This will require us fitting 100 Gallons of fuel tank and HF radio , its getting interesting day by day ;-))))))
Dennis
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Old 09-24-18, 09:40 PM
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hharney hharney is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywalker View Post
Mean while we have decided to ferry via Azores ,Southern route due to winter coming ahead and also one Guy sent me a link of one incident where One Swedish guy ditched his SkyMaster in Atlantic in August, , as both his engines stopped working, we will never know what
If this is the same incident that happened several years ago, I understood the issue was the oil breathers froze up and pumped all the oil overboard. This is why there should be an alternate air path in the breather tube. The airplane is on the bottom of the ocean so probably will never know for sure but that was the theory that I heard.
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Old 09-25-18, 12:38 PM
Skywalker Skywalker is offline
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pre buy inspection

Hello Herb
yes the accident happened in 2009 ,we will check if the oil breather has alternate path or not, if no , it will be installed
But we have decided to take the southern route any how.
Dennis
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Old 09-30-18, 06:17 AM
JAG JAG is offline
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oil loss

Not to bump the thread - but that incident in 2009...everything looked like an oil loss, but I do not remember reading anything about the props feathering. can an oil loss still be explained without the props feathering at cruise RPM?
Jeff
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Old 10-03-18, 11:08 AM
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hharney hharney is offline
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Posted For Skywalker

The ongoing Drama

pls see the snags list, its ;Enlightening
Attached Files
File Type: pdf SQUAWKS LIST.pdf (236.3 KB, 37 views)
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Old 10-03-18, 11:11 AM
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kilr4d kilr4d is offline
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Exclamation

My goodness.

Dennis - What is the estimate cost for this prebuy???
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Old 10-03-18, 11:25 AM
Skywalker Skywalker is offline
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Originally Posted by kilr4d View Post
My goodness.

Dennis - What is the estimate cost for this prebuy???

Hello John
the Cost to do the prebuy was 4000 USD and to fix all the snags will cost around 50 k USD,but u see lot of items are preventive maintenance ,for example Hoses were never changed, so they are 40 years old, its alone 6 k USD for both engine, although they are still good, but common sense says after 10 years they should be changed, although there is no requirement for the part 91 operators, Power pac need complete overhaul ,4 K USD, Brakes lines , 1000 US,aux. fuel pumps were never overhauled, cost 1700 each installed,
Fuel selectors never overhauled also around 1700 USD each , Installed
but as wrote before Owner reduced the price and for the preventive items , i will have to pay ,
Dennis
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Old 10-03-18, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywalker View Post
Hello John
the Cost to do the prebuy was 4000 USD and to fix all the snags will cost around 50 k USD,but u see lot of items are preventive maintenance ,for example Hoses were never changed, so they are 40 years old, its alone 6 k USD for both engine, although they are still good, but common sense says after 10 years they should be changed, although there is no requirement for the part 91 operators, Power pac need complete overhaul ,4 K USD, Brakes lines , 1000 US,aux. fuel pumps were never overhauled, cost 1700 each installed,
Fuel selectors never overhauled also around 1700 USD each , Installed
but as wrote before Owner reduced the price and for the preventive items , i will have to pay ,
Dennis
Well that's a lot of money but hopefully you will be happy and confident with the airplane for years to come.
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Old 10-03-18, 11:34 AM
Skywalker Skywalker is offline
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Ongoing drama

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Originally Posted by kilr4d View Post
Well that's a lot of money but hopefully you will be happy and confident with the airplane for years to come.
Yes it is indeed big investment , but look at the Beech Baron G58 twin engine price for the new plane ,which is non pressurised and not de iced, it will cost you around 1.2 to 1.3 million USD, and if you will have an engine failure during take off, that will ;BECOME REAL ;ONGOING DRAMA; FOR A SEASONAL FLYER WHO FLYIES, 50- 60 HRS A YEAR, so i am convinced my P337 With G-500, GTN 750, GTN 650, JPI 960, STEC 55 X A.P if manufactured today might cost around 2 million USD ,So its still a bargain ;-))
Dennis
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  #14  
Old 10-06-18, 11:43 AM
JAG JAG is offline
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Snag list

Hose prices are a little high. Also, the way those snags are written up are appalling - it's as if the person writing them has English as a second language. They should be written as what is wrong, including any reference to the manual to support this. As a Canadian Licensed Maintenance Engineer and former Director of Maintenance, I would not have such a list as a pre-buy. You have to break down the airworthiness defects separate from the cosmetic and opinion defects. Just my opinion...
Jeff
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Old 10-06-18, 03:21 PM
Skywalker Skywalker is offline
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pre buy inspection

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAG View Post
Hose prices are a little high. Also, the way those snags are written up are appalling - it's as if the person writing them has English as a second language. They should be written as what is wrong, including any reference to the manual to support this. As a Canadian Licensed Maintenance Engineer and former Director of Maintenance, I would not have such a list as a pre-buy. You have to break down the airworthiness defects separate from the cosmetic and opinion defects. Just my opinion...
Jeff
Hello Jeff
the aircraft which i bought was one of the highest asking price, so i wanted every inch to be checked ,minor or major and u can see from the list made, it was as some one using microscope to inspect the aircraft, Of course we then separated airworthiness items and minor items in seperate groups, seller reduced the price for the airworthiness items which needed to be fixed. but i decided to go and fix each and every thing now, as i think lot of minor items are waiting to become ;major; one day , any how its just my way of thinking, as i am big advocate of ;preventive maintenance ;-)))) about the language ,i think, its straight forward and we have another report which explains every item in details, purpose of posting ;this kind of pre buy check list ( shortest possible) was , the future buyers and current user to see ,what kind of things they should be looking at ,when buying,or using the their aircrafts, its kind of fast track checks
Regards
Dennis
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