A topic we don't like to talk about.....

[GMAs]

Over the weekend we had a 310 go down into a group of people... just after take of... both engines lost power... and while the reason is still under investigation... it is clear that the owner was cutting corners... on the inital findings...

Look we all don't like to spend money on aircraft... and flying... we like to fly and squeek when we walk... but, their are limits...

Best it be said that if your going to fly your going to have to spend money... and while we all would like to keep our money and use something cheeper... the part that suffers is reliablity and the ability to keep flying safely...

What happened here is that the pilot knew he lost power on take off... now brackett field is right off the end of Puddingstone resivor... a favorite play ground for kids and water sports... and I think you can begin to see the picture here...

The pilot elected to try and put it down in the parking lot... which was on the other side of the beach... so between the lake and the parking lot was a 4th of july gathering... of lots of party going people... and kids... having a good time...

Well the pilot made it.. after hitting the beach... and killing 4 people right off... including himself... which made 5.... not a good thing huh....

What I am getting to here is that we have a responsiblity to the public and each other... and in this case the pilot should have known that he was going to plow the farm... and instead of taking others with him... should have taken a different approch to the problem... and planted it in the lake... and saved the others from a death that they need not have....

I am not saying that we are supposed to be heros.. but, that we are given a responsiblity that is above the rest... when we fly... and some times we have to use a option that we don't find favorable... but, necessary to save others...

This is something to think about every time you go get into the plane... you are passing over lots of people you don't even know... but, your are responsible for keeping safe...

So.... how do we try and gurentee... safe flight... by keeping up with the maintance... keeping our planes in good shape... and flying responsibly... and lastly... keeping in the back of our minds that when things go really wrong.. we may have to make that ultimate decision....

I hope that I don't sound like a downer... but, sorry to hear that this person was more interested in saving himself and his plane than putting the others first.... GMAs...

[Richard]

I agree with you on some points. If it were me in his shoes. I would have picked a spot tried to land there. I'm thinking that he didn't see that it was populated with people from the air. Just giving him the benefit for the doubt. I think it's a natural reflex to try to save our own skins. However, I don't agree with sloppy workmanship. If you are flying your bird over populated areas (almost all of us fall into this catagory), it is your duty to make sure your plane is in top shape. I see a few corners cut here and there. There is no excuse for it. If you say flying is too much, well..... Let's see who's making it so expensive. I can think of only one group. The FAA. They make the insurance, and STC's so expensive that no one can afford to pay for it. Complain to them. Not to your A&P that is doing the best he can. Too bad though. I didn't think twin engine failures happened very often.

[kevin]

Hey, I hate the FAA as much as the next guy ;-), and I do agree they make our airplanes, and our maintenance costs, higher than they need to be. But I don't think they get all, or even most, of the blame for high insurance costs. Sure, maybe high cost of repairs you could trace to them (or to the inherent costs of the low volume business that is aviation these days, which traces to fuel costs), but much of our high insurance costs come from our widowed spouses and others suing the pants off of anyone in sight and winning big awards, that those of still alive have to pay for. And even if they don't win, the costs of defending the suits are astronomical.

Fix our legal system to make it less generous to our bereaved, less costly to participate in, and our insurance costs will go down.

How? That's a subject for another forum...but it won't be easy.

And before someone replies blaming the lawyers, let me say that IMCO, individual lawyers are acting rationally and ethically within our legal and capitalist systems. If the legal system was changed, it would be less profitable to be a lawyer, and there would be less of them. I don't blame bright people today who find they can acquire a skill that society will reward them very handsomely for. I blame ALL of us for not changing the system.

End of rant. :-) Sorry Richard, not trying to hassle you, just taking aim at a very common perception that the FAA is responsible for ALL of our ills, rather than just some of them.

Now, if you want to talk about each individual GPS installation requiring a field approval, that is a pile of crap I would cheerfully lay in front of the FAA's door. Oops, that's another rant...

Kevin

[Kevin McDole]

Many of the FAA rules were created due to some clowns doing crazy and stupid stuff. Maybe the regs are an over-reaction, but for a field that is so regulated, there is an incredible amount of absolutely dangerous crap done to aircraft by their owners, mechanics and unidentified persons. While it represents a tiny percentage of the good people who work in this industry, you don't have to look too far for their droppings.

Ask any mechanic and you'll hear loads of war stories about how things were misinstalled/misreparied. If every mechanic has seen examples of stuff that will kill the pilot, then you have to admit something is horribly wrong. I certainly don't have the answer, and I do not believe that government regulations (however well intended) are a good thing. The regs we have don't seem to solve the problem - and it's making this hobby much more expensive than it should be.

For some amusing & interesting examples, take a look at Avionics West's web site. They have a page dedicated to the "Crazy Things We Find."

http://avionicswest.com/errors/mainpage.htm

[WebMaster]

When I first read GMAS's article, I was reminded of an incident that happened when I was living in Las Vegas, many years ago. A fighter took off from Nellis, and had an engine failure shortly after takeoff. The plane was over or near North Las Vegas, which at that time was mostly residential. The pilot rode it in, and put the plane between 2 houses, ended up on the street. No casualties on the ground. If he had ejected, the results may not have been as good for the people on the ground.
We have a responsibility to maintain our aircraft, but if thing really take a dump, we also have a responsibility to not involve others in our tragedy.

[Bob Cook]

Pilots will continue to do stupid things. Ed Coffman mentioned on Sunday that 90% of all SM accidents is running out of fuel.
How do you regulate Stupiditiy, lack of currency, or flying an aircraft that has not had a CofA for seven years (seen it!).

Yes, lawyers DO NOT help the situation, but love ones want retrobution and the legal system will give it to them. ie. Carnihan..... Ex Lawyers make the law.

Yes, the FAA is in your face, and for a reason. To keep the mfgr's honest and bogus parts out of the system. A mixed blessing...

And Mechanics ? I have my horror stories like all of us, but we as pilots and owners are responsible for the aircraft and piloting of such. It is our responsibility to assure their work is being done correctly. Checks and balance.

When things go wrong it is easy to sit back and do second guess the pilot, however, we were not there. We do not know what happened and we do not know the pilots mindset.

We do know that things go bad quickly and due to panic, inexperience or problems beyond control of the pilot things do not turn out as planned. He was not expecting to end this flight in the middle of fair let alone his life and lives of others.

The cost of flying is the cost of flying. The cost of shaving corners can you a your life or the lives of others. We are back to personal responsiblity of which few want to accept anymore.

Rant, maybe, just glad I was not in the cockpit and (2) I have control over my destiny.

Hopefully we can stay alive by learning from other's mistakes or experiences..... that's why we are here.

Kevinmcdo, I saw a 310 lose an engine at San Jose northbound after takeoff. Ended up on the medium on 101 ducking under the high tension lines. The pilot got out of the aircraft, including instructor and he kept saying "what happened". He feathered the wrong engine! Only when he went back into the cockpit and saw the lever position would he believe it! The pilot had 2000 hrs in type. It can happen that easy.. You could see thru the crankcase on the port engine.

bob