A word about western skymasters llc

Jhogan0101 · #1 06-30-19, 02:30 PM

I purchased 4949D last week from western skymasters LLC. I was dealing with the owner Ron Lillie. I spoke to Ron and told him i found his listing on skymaster.com. It was listed at $64500, when i told him i was interested in looking at the plane he said that price was a mistake and changed the price on skymaster.com to $69500. Below are links to the listing (screenshots). I flew out to SLC from philadelphia, i also flew out a ferry pilot from ohio because im not rated to fly a 337 yet. I also flew out an a&p from texas for the prebuy. Upon arriving in salt lake city i saw that some of the avionics were missing. The first item was a King KT-76C transponder, it was changed to a KT-76A unit. I asked Ron about this and he put the 76C back in. The other missing items were “True Flight 650 Touch screen EFIS with Charts and XM Weather” “I-Fly GPS 740 with ADS-B in (traffic and weather touch screen GPS)” “Skybolt ADS-B out certified wing tip mounted system 2020 compliance” and the “Garmin GMA-345 audio panel with bluetooth connectivity” was not install but instead a Garmin GMA-340 also listing says “strobes” the only strobe was the belly strobe. Upon the prebuy inspection my mechanic found a few things one of which was bad rear lord engine mounts. I asked Ron what he could do to reduce the sale price. He said the best he could do was $67500. I asked about the missing items and he said “its not my fault Bill over at skymaster.com listed it wrong” i tried to reach Bill for clarification at that time but he was not available. I really felt like i should have walked but i had a considerable amount of time and money into the prebuy which Ron was aware of, so i accepted his deal.

On the way back to philadelphia we landed in wisconsin, while we were at salt lake city, Ron reinstalled the tail position light and soldered the lead wire. During the flight the light came out and was hanging (see photo link). When back in philadelphia i messaged him the photo his response on 6/20 was “Oh Great. I’m sorry. The screws in the tail light probably need to have “lock tight” on them and that should fix that issue. The vibration is probably causing them to loosen up. “

When i got back to philadelphia i remembered that Ron sent me a text with a short video from may 16th of the plane that was taken in his hangar before i came out to SLC. Its proof that he was not being truthful with me. I messaged him and said that before i called Bill Crews about this id like to “sort” this out with him first. I requested that he send me a check for $2750, the cost of a GTX 335 transponder for ads-b out and i’d pay for the installation and we’ll call it even. He said that he sold me the plane and not Bill and that he was not going to renegotiate or compensate me for anything. In the video you can see the i-fly 740 on the yoke and the KT-76C transponder. I messaged Ron a photo with the i-fly 740 circled and his response
“That’s my iPad
Nobody sells their iPad with a plane.
(No it’s not an iPad it’s an iPad copycat)”
Also before i left his hangar in SLC, i took a photo of the i-fly 740 sitting on his shelf.

After this I called Bill Crews, Bill said “Ron told me the whole story. Ive sold 30-40 planes with Ron and never had any problems. Good luck with the plane.”

https://i.ibb.co/RHMp7s3/BF0-DF57-B-...316-DB59-E.png
https://i.ibb.co/XjPGyWj/2-E0-EEBAB-...77-E0-E2-A.png
https://i.ibb.co/MNydF8x/E48283-C3-A...4-CDDE34-B.png
https://i.ibb.co/ZMgTcRy/665079-E9-1...831-B73-D6.png
https://i.ibb.co/nBWLHVx/4389-F647-B...19958-D086.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/vZY1G4F/0-CE21431-B...D14358-E52.png
https://i.ibb.co/p3PchbZ/A92-CB7-BD-...8-B9-C9197.jpg
https://ibb.co/Xb93dLT
https://ibb.co/h2jthtM
https://youtu.be/w9hcivtTFYk

Frank Benvin · #2 07-01-19, 11:53 AM

Quote "I really felt like i should have walked but i had a considerable amount of time and money into the prebuy which Ron was aware of, so i accepted his deal"

Question- You accepted the deal - you took the plane knowing all the facts

Now you are complaining - you shouldn't have bought it if you didn't like the deal

Jhogan0101 · #3 07-01-19, 01:09 PM

Frank,
Im not complaining, im just trying to let people know how this guy does business so they dont get screwed like i did. If the gear that was supposed to be in the plane was there, i wouldnt have posted this.

Rick Erwin · #4 07-06-19, 02:11 PM

This is my experience in purchasing an airplane from Ron Lillie at Western Skymasters, LLC:

In March I bought N337K from Ron and my interaction with him could not have been better. The airplane had a few problems and Ron fixed them. It took a couple of months to get my schedule coordinated with someone to do an insurance required IPC/checkout in the airplane and Ron was gracious and accommodating during that whole period. He was nothing but kind, patient and honorable in helping get the airplane ready to fly home.

I’m sorry you had a bad experience in the purchase of your airplane, I hope you are enjoying having her though!

Rick

Jhogan0101 · #5 07-06-19, 05:07 PM

Glad to hear Rick, did he include the airworthiness certificate? Still waiting on mine. He said he would mail it because he couldnt find it when i was there. I received a text message with a photo of it the day i left SLC. Nothing in the mail yet.

https://ibb.co/ZdbKhxc

Rick Erwin · #6 07-06-19, 05:29 PM

I did have all of the required paperwork as well as manuals and logbooks at delivery.

I hope you get everything sorted out soon!

Ed Coffman · #7 07-24-19, 04:47 AM

You get what you pay for.

Jhogan0101 · #8 07-24-19, 06:52 AM

No Ed, i DID NOT get what i paid for.

JimC · #9 07-07-20, 08:45 PM

"i should have walked but i had a considerable amount of time and money into the prebuy [...] so i accepted his deal"

If you can't back out of a deal after a prebuy inspection, then it's not a prebuy inspection.

Here's another look at Western Skymasters: I just landed a new-to-me T337 from Ron Lillie at my home airport.

Is it the nicest plane ever? No, there is no $65,000 retractable twin that is the nicest plane ever. $65,000 retractable twins need work. Period.
Is it airworthy? Yes.
Am I satisfied? Yes.
Did something minor break on the flight home? Yes. It's a fifty year old bargain-basement airplane. S*** happens.
Will I be doing business with Ron again? Yes.

For those of you getting ready to buy your first Skymaster, here's a suggested order of items. I highly recommend not moving to the next step until the previous step is complete.

1) Go over all the paperwork you want to examine.
2) Agree on a resolution for any discrepancies found.
3) Get a mechanic to look the plane over.
4) Agree on a resolution for any discrepancies found.
5) Perform (or have a qualified pilot perform) a test flight.
6) Agree on a resolution for any discrepancies found.
7) Fix the seller-resolved discrepancies.
8) Confirm that the seller-resolved discrepancies have been fixed.
9) Close the sale.
10) Fly it home.

Don't try to do all the steps in one day. It won't end well. Buying a plane is like buying a house - it takes time.

For this Skymaster, it took me about 8 weeks from my first call to Ron to today. I found him easy to work with and I expect to do business with him again.

flyag1 · #10 07-07-20, 09:26 PM

As a new member here on this forum, let me first say I’m from the old school. My first airplane purchase goes back to 1981. Since that time I’ve bought and sold several Airplanes with one being a 337 (back in 96). In that time I’ve crossed paths with a lot of brokers /dealers. Some great and some not so much. So when it’s time to buy, my trusted broker / dealer list is very short. Will I buy from one not on the trusted list? Yes, but the terms and pre buy will be different for non trusted.

Trust is gained over time and lost in a moment. If at all, regained with great difficulty

Jhogan0101 · #11 07-07-20, 09:33 PM

Jim,
Glad you had a great experience with Western Skymasters

My skymaster is still in the shop, annual at $40k w parts so far

When i got to salt lake city, an older transponder was in the plane. Not the one in the ad. What kind of person does that? I had to argue with ron to put the one in the ad back in.

The skybolt adsb was uninstalled. He wouldnt reinstall it

The ifly gps was gone and he wouldnt put that back in.

I received the logs in a empty plastic swiffer bag, later on when i had a real mechanic look at them, he informed me many of the logs were missing or incomplete.

He sold me a plane with an unapproved jerry rigged cowl flap system (Consisted of one c172 motor) that his employed by him a&p signed off on (previous owner installed it) had to remove that system and install a entirely new

Also, he lied about damage history. The leading edge of the right wing was poorly repaired in the past. There was a one line description of it in the logs. It cost me $20K, the outside was pop riveted and inside some of the ribs were completely missing rivets. Here is the text from ron before i bought it.

“Absolutely the cleanest 67 out there. 2500 ttsn
Three owners since new hungered all its life.
1000 hr motors 350 hr props. No damage history at all plus perfect logs. My personal plane the last year
Great panel everything works.”

He talks a good game but he is full of it.

Also i later found that my prebuy mechanic that missed 99% of the problems had a prior working relationship with Ron that i did not know about going into the prebuy.

Im 39, have had my ppl for about a year now, bought My first plane 2 years ago (C150).
Ive had a lot of experiences in aviation so far and i can tell you it is one of the most corrupt industries ive ever seen.
The only good experiences ive had is talking to and befriending other owners.

JimC · #12 07-08-20, 12:25 AM

I'm sorry you got stuck with a $20k repair because of crappy work. How long ago was the repair? It sounds like a lot of people didn't catch it. I passed on a Skymaster a few years ago that had a version of the IO-360 engine installed that was not on the TC, and there had been 17 annuals from 4 different IAs since that installation.

BTW, what is a C172 cowl flap motor? I thought the only 172s with any cowl flaps were actually the last of the 1963 C175 Skylarks renamed as P172Ds. IIRC, they had manual cowl flaps because of the larger 175hp engine.

flyag1 · #13 07-08-20, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jhogan0101

Jim,
Glad you had a great experience with Western Skymasters

My skymaster is still in the shop, annual at $40k w parts so far

When i got to salt lake city, an older transponder was in the plane. Not the one in the ad. What kind of person does that? I had to argue with ron to put the one in the ad back in.

The skybolt adsb was uninstalled. He wouldnt reinstall it

The ifly gps was gone and he wouldnt put that back in.

I received the logs in a empty plastic swiffer bag, later on when i had a real mechanic look at them, he informed me many of the logs were missing or incomplete.

He sold me a plane with an unapproved jerry rigged cowl flap system (Consisted of one c172 motor) that his employed by him a&p signed off on (previous owner installed it) had to remove that system and install a entirely new

Also, he lied about damage history. The leading edge of the right wing was poorly repaired in the past. There was a one line description of it in the logs. It cost me $20K, the outside was pop riveted and inside some of the ribs were completely missing rivets. Here is the text from ron before i bought it.

“Absolutely the cleanest 67 out there. 2500 ttsn
Three owners since new hungered all its life.
1000 hr motors 350 hr props. No damage history at all plus perfect logs. My personal plane the last year
Great panel everything works.”

He talks a good game but he is full of it.

Also i later found that my prebuy mechanic that missed 99% of the problems had a prior working relationship with Ron that i did not know about going into the prebuy.

Im 39, have had my ppl for about a year now, bought My first plane 2 years ago (C150).
Ive had a lot of experiences in aviation so far and i can tell you it is one of the most corrupt industries ive ever seen.
The only good experiences ive had is talking to and befriending other owners.

I totally agree, aviation has become a breeding ground for corrupt sellers.

Based on current Trade-a-Plane adds, there are at least 2 out there with damage even though the "Brokers that's on this Forum" listed the airplanes with NDH.

Maybe most don't open the logs and look and the dealer get away with lies stating "No Damage History". It's a lie plane and simple.

I called one of this airplanes out to the dealer in an email: reply was something like this....

I don't get it when people are concerned with damage history from 20 years ago.

JAG · #14 07-08-20, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jhogan0101

Jim,
Im 39, have had my ppl for about a year now, bought My first plane 2 years ago (C150).
Ive had a lot of experiences in aviation so far and i can tell you it is one of the most corrupt industries ive ever seen.
The only good experiences ive had is talking to and befriending other owners.

I am sorry to hear of your bad experiences so far - for those of us that aviation is our passion, livelihood and bad habit, we never like hearing of these types of situations.

If it is any consolation, I am 43 years old, a pilot since 18 and a mechanic since 19 - and I grew up in an aviation family - flying and fixing planes from our backyard. I think this gives me some experience in aviation - but everyday I learn how much I don't know. My most recent annual cost me more than I paid for the aircraft, even after doing an extensive pre-buy. That is not surprising knowing we are buying 40+ year old aircraft, and want to fix them properly.

That being said, it is not the most corrupt industry I have seen. It is however, not kind to those who do not take extreme care and responsibility in conducting due diligence. Even after doing extreme research, pre-buys, flights, inspections and everything you think to mitigate the risk of buying an aircraft in poor condition, there will inevitably be issues that come up.

Aircraft sales is no different than car or home sales - except for the fact that airplanes, for the most part, are a luxury item. With that - there comes opportunity. Continue to befriend aviation types and surround yourself with people that have "made their mistakes", and learn from them. Continue to pass on your knowledge as well.

I hope the rest of your annual goes well and hope you get years of enjoyment out of your Skymaster.

Be safe,
Jeff

hharney · #15 07-08-20, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAG

I am sorry to hear of your bad experiences so far - for those of us that aviation is our passion, livelihood and bad habit, we never like hearing of these types of situations.

If it is any consolation, I am 43 years old, a pilot since 18 and a mechanic since 19 - and I grew up in an aviation family - flying and fixing planes from our backyard. I think this gives me some experience in aviation - but everyday I learn how much I don't know. My most recent annual cost me more than I paid for the aircraft, even after doing an extensive pre-buy. That is not surprising knowing we are buying 40+ year old aircraft, and want to fix them properly.

That being said, it is not the most corrupt industry I have seen. It is however, not kind to those who do not take extreme care and responsibility in conducting due diligence. Even after doing extreme research, pre-buys, flights, inspections and everything you think to mitigate the risk of buying an aircraft in poor condition, there will inevitably be issues that come up.

Aircraft sales is no different than car or home sales - except for the fact that airplanes, for the most part, are a luxury item. With that - there comes opportunity. Continue to befriend aviation types and surround yourself with people that have "made their mistakes", and learn from them. Continue to pass on your knowledge as well.

I hope the rest of your annual goes well and hope you get years of enjoyment out of your Skymaster.

Be safe,
Jeff

Thanks for your words Jeff, I hope you misunderstood Julian when he said "most corrupt...." and that he really meant just the broker company he purchased from. The aviation industry is a pretty small niche group and has always been a very special, trusting family in my book. Yes there are scams out there and there are different approaches to avoiding those but in the this aviation family this is rare because the rest of the us (the family) will weed those bad situations out of the industry