Should i Install The Aviation Enterprises Wing Lets

[Skywalker]

I am completing my dream Sky Master 337 ;Pressurised model and in process of purchase, spotted out 3 planes ,two are in Europe and one In USA,All are ;H; model
My mission consists of 550 nm Trips over Apls with MEA of 16000 ft and in winter have lot of icing conditions, and as we know SkyMasters are not FIKI, I was thinking Winglets , are good choice as they will enhance my climb rate( as per claim) and let me climb faster if i encounter ice on the way up?i have no other wing extensions mods, standard 148 G tanks, was told by one of very respectful name and SkyMaster expert.. to stay away from them?
pls guide and advise, you guys can write me on skywalkerbellagio@gmail.com
or give opinion in this forum, thanks and blue skies
Dennis
Poznan
Poland

[Red Air Rambo]

Hi Dennis, use of the search function on this forum and a little on google help a lot with these older planes. In your case the plane sounds perfect how it is if it is booted for the occasional ice encounters.

Brent

[Skywalker]

Thanx Brent , for the feed back ;-))

[kilr4d]

Originally Posted by Skywalker

I am completing my dream Sky Master 337 ;Pressurised model and in process of purchase,
pls guide and advise,

thanks and blue skies
Dennis
Poznan
Poland

Dennis the BEST possible advice is to buy a plane first and fly it for at least a year before you modify. Doesn't matter how detailed your prebuy inspection, the first year of owning a plane is always a challenge.

Work out all the bugs, learn the plane...then decide if you need mods.

[Skywalker]

John
this is great advise indeed, i studied all related posts, /threads from 2002 till 2017 which could help me to understand this plane, and know about the nuances, problems, maintenance issue, operating techniques etc , made lot of notes , and came to the conclusion.that ;Intercoolers and Speed Brakes/Spoiler; are must have
its not about ;if i plan my descends well ahead, i do not need spoilers, main purpose for spoilers would be to descend fast thru icing .My business trips will be Poznan- Milan( Malpensa) and even in summer over Alps we do encounter icing ;-(((
yes wing lets, and STOL mods may be just cosmetics, and nothing else
By the way ,already bought the inter coolers
Dennis

[JeffAxel]

Dennis, my experience with deiced Skymasters in icing is they don't do very well. They don't climb all that well clean, and the rate of climb really falls off with any ice accumulation. They also loose a lot of speed with ice due to ice accumulation on all the surfaces that aren't booted like the vertical tails and struts. The engines run hot too due to the ice accumulations around the cooling air inlets. All in all, a bad deal. The boots loose effectiveness the higher you climb too, and really didn't shed ice well in the mid to high teens. I went through three winters in the Pacific Northwest in a booted P Skymaster with full deice, wouldn't do that again. No Skymaster is approved for flight in known icing, and from my experience, for good reason. If you are seriously considering flying in icing, I would look for a plane with much better climb capability that has been tested and approved for flight in icing conditions.

[Skywalker]

Hello Jeff
thanks for the very valuable info, i have been so much excited that i have found the most safest piston twin in the world, but icing capabilities and your experience really giving me second thoughts, i have been; so much inspired and ;fixed; on the idea of Skymaster owner ship ;-(((((
of course i will always try to avoid FIKI; Even i had the plane equipped with FIKI with piston engines, but do you think it is hard to escape and too dangerous. if i encounter icing during my flight in a Skymater P337?

[LostKiwi]

Originally Posted by JeffAxel

I went through three winters in the Pacific Northwest in a booted P Skymaster with full deice, wouldn't do that again.

I live in the PNW, currently have an N/A Skymaster, and I've been dreaming the dream of a booted P, not because I want to go screaming into icing, but for the same principle as a condom. I'd rather have the boots and not need them/use them.

After you sold your P, what kind of machine did you go to?



Leighton

[JeffAxel]

Originally Posted by Skywalker

Hello Jeff
thanks for the very valuable info, i have been so much excited that i have found the most safest piston twin in the world, but icing capabilities and your experience really giving me second thoughts, i have been; so much inspired and ;fixed; on the idea of Skymaster owner ship ;-(((((
of course i will always try to avoid FIKI; Even i had the plane equipped with FIKI with piston engines, but do you think it is hard to escape and too dangerous. if i encounter icing during my flight in a Skymater P337?

Escape would depend on how you are doing it and what the conditions are. If you are descending through a layer, and the air temperature below is above freezing a few thousand feet above the ground and you loose the accumulated ice before landing, you might be OK. If the freezing air extends all the way to the ground, that would be a problem as you will be a test pilot landing an iced up airframe in a condition it has not been tested for. A FIKI airplane would be tested with known behavior and stated increased speeds to fly. As to climbing to on top conditions, this is more problematic. You will find that the worst icing in clouds is at the top of the clouds. The Skymaster isn't a very good climber even with no ice accumulation. The climb rate really takes a hit as ice accumulates, and the accumulation rate increases the closer to the tops you get. All the while the engine cooling is getting worse as ice accumulates on the cooling inlets and the engines are running hotter just at the point you need maximum power to preserve your decreasing climb rate. I think you can see where this might not end well. Now this is true of all aircraft to some degree, but one with better climb capability and better ice shedding on more of its surfaces will do better than a Skymaster. If the icing layer is known to not be too deep or too severe, you might be able to climb through it, but you have to ask, what is your life worth? Any light aircraft versus icing can be problematic, the advantage of a FIKI aircraft is that it has been tested and this gives you some guidance as to what the performance will be and what you can expect. It is no guarantee you can outclimb ice, or land safely if you accumulate too much on unprotected surfaces. If you are going to fly in icing in light planes, do it with full knowledge of the risks, and have solid gold outs. If you don't have a plan B you can be sure you can carry out, use plan C, put the ice in a nice cold drink at your home.

[JeffAxel]

Originally Posted by LostKiwi

I live in the PNW, currently have an N/A Skymaster, and I've been dreaming the dream of a booted P, not because I want to go screaming into icing, but for the same principle as a condom. I'd rather have the boots and not need them/use them.

After you sold your P, what kind of machine did you go to?



Leighton

1983 FIKI P210. The 1983 P210 had an improved deicing setup from earlier 210s. It has 2 vacuum pumps, both plumbed into the deicing boots, so it has twice the air supply of earlier models which results in more effective shedding of ice. Unlike the P337 where all the deicing boots inflate at once, the P210 setup is cycled with the inner wings inflating, followed by the outer wings and finally the tail boots. This results in snappier boot inflation and better ice shedding as well. The P210 doesn't have wing struts, and the vertical tail is booted, so less of the airframe is unprotected. All of this results in much less performance loss in the P210 vs the P337 in icing. The ceiling of the P210 is FL230 vs FL200 for the P337 which made the difference between in the tops versus on top on quite a few occasions. The P210 is also legal to fly in icing conditions, if that matters. That said, I still won't just launch into icing conditions, on days like today (12/24) for example. If the freezing level goes all the way to the ground, that is a no go. If I can't be assured of being able to climb to non icing altitudes, I won't fly. Also, if there are reports of moderate or worse icing in the area, I would think twice about launching. The P210 is a light plane, and any light plane and icing should give one pause. Don't get me wrong, I loved my P337, and miss it at night, over the Cascades and in IFR conditions, but the P210 handles ice better, and it is less expensive to fly. It can carry more with full fuel, and since I have a 29 gallon aux tank, it has better range which can matter in icing since you may be flying at slower speeds with ice on unprotected surfaces. The performance of the aircraft is essentially the same too. Where in the PNW are you, I am based at KHIO.

[LostKiwi]

Originally Posted by JeffAxel

Where in the PNW are you, I am based at KHIO.

I am just above the boarder from you, in The Great White North eh.
I've spent a lot of time working in and around your area, mostly in helicopters.

My boss just sold his P210N (previously based at S03), absolutely beautiful airplane - and I think he still sobs when he looks at pics. Kinda neat to compare the fuel burn / running costs between his 210 and my 337. Of course, he had me trumped with the pressurisation.

Leighton.

[Skywalker]

Alex
i have great dilemma now ;-((((
and looking at C340
or C414A ( Less complicated fuel system and bonded wing), as you said how much worth is your life and health , it made me thinking once again, my typical flying will be over hostile terrains, and in this part of Europe we have lot of IFR weather.
But i was never fan of traditional twin pistons ,due to asymetric thrust issues,
Best aircraft would be Turbine, but i can afford them ;-(((
what would you advise?
P210 is out of question .
Mary Christmas to all SOAPA members

[Skywalker]

Jeff
sorry misspelled you name ,wrote Alex instead of AXEL

[JeffAxel]

Originally Posted by Skywalker

Alex
i have great dilemma now ;-((((
and looking at C340
or C414A ( Less complicated fuel system and bonded wing), as you said how much worth is your life and health , it made me thinking once again, my typical flying will be over hostile terrains, and in this part of Europe we have lot of IFR weather.
But i was never fan of traditional twin pistons ,due to asymetric thrust issues,
Best aircraft would be Turbine, but i can afford them ;-(((
what would you advise?
P210 is out of question .
Mary Christmas to all SOAPA members

I can see where a P210 isn't your choice, and it wasn't a recommendation, just what I chose. If I had the desire and need to fly over hostile terrain in winter, and operating expenses were not a limitation, I would recommend turbine equipment. Much more reliable engines and systems, and much better climb rate. If you can't get into a turboprop, any FIKI piston twin would be a better choice than a P337 in my opinion. The C414A has among the lowest accident rates of the pressurized piston twins and wouldn't be a bad choice, especially with RAM engines with higher horsepower and better climb rates than the stock airplane. Good luck on whatever you choose, and Merry Christmas!

[JamesC]

There are SO many factors to look at when deciding upon an aircraft that we can’t even scratch the surface of them here. The later P210 model is a beautiful example of a pressurized FIKI single but I like the engine out rate of climb better in the Skymaster. The 414A is a phenomenal twin but you will need a boatload of multi time to get affordable insurance.