Skymaster vs. Cirrus

[ipasgas1]

I like both of these but know I would have to spend a bit on new panels. Any idea what it would cost to ferry a plane from England, aside from the fuel aspect? Are there a lot of people who do this? I found a nice p337 on tradeaplane for 125K with everything I am looking for except it is pressurized so the upkeep is going to cost more in every aspect.
What is the advantage of the P over the T other than not wearing oxygen and being quieter? Their fuel burn is higher as well, isn't it?

[aldoradave]

Go to Skymaster.com and look at a 73 P337 listed for $89,000. You should be able to get it for $75,000. Avionics are not great but you can buy a lot of that for the price differences.

Dave Dillehay

[aldoradave]

PS

The turbo vs non turbo fuel burn difference is not really very much if you, could or do, run the two engines at the same manifold pressure at altitude. BTW, the turbo gives you lots more knots if you can run at altitude, not to mention the ability to get up there.

As an example from my P337 Owner's Manual: at 6000 ft a 73 P337 at 25" and 2450 rpm is at 54% power and results in 181 mph. At 12,000 ft it is still 54% power 194 mph. IN both cases the fuel burn is slightly over 15 gal/hr. So you get 13 mph at the same fuel burn. Throw in that in my region it is usually smoother air up there, the T or P were my logical solution.

I just finished an exhaustive search of just about every T or P 337 out there and if you would like to converse with me directly about the market I can give you my impressions and some other leads. I am dave@aldora.com

Dave Dillehay

[JeffAxel]

Originally Posted by ipasgas1

I like both of these but know I would have to spend a bit on new panels. Any idea what it would cost to ferry a plane from England, aside from the fuel aspect? Are there a lot of people who do this? I found a nice p337 on tradeaplane for 125K with everything I am looking for except it is pressurized so the upkeep is going to cost more in every aspect.
What is the advantage of the P over the T other than not wearing oxygen and being quieter? Their fuel burn is higher as well, isn't it?

The biggest advantage of the P is comfort, pure and simple. Less noise, and no need for oxygen are huge advantages if you fly long legs, and most P Skymasters have 150 gallons of fuel so 5hr legs are possible. Your passengers as well as you will appreciate the difference. Any Skymaster is much more efficient at altitude, and you are more likely to take advantage of that if you just climb up there, no hassling with oxygen, etc. above 12.5K ft. You also don't have to pay to refill your oxygen tanks. I would never go back to a non pressurized plane after owning a pressurized one. My wife would shoot me!!

[gkey]

ipasgas1,

First off, as anesthetist I find your avtar name cool!

I have flown 172, 182, Arrow, Seneca II, and Skymaster. I still have my beloved 172N and 337G. My wife refuses to get into a plane with only one engine - I think it is irrational, but it's her choice. On the other hand, she greatly enjoys our trips in the 337. If I have to make a choice again, I would take the 337 again, hands down. I bought my 337 two years ago. I always wanted to upgrade the panel, but could not get enough reason to get past my chartered accountant for that one. Then, last year in August, I had an electrical fire and most of my centre stack, including my S-Tec55 burnt out. That proved to be a mixed blessing, because I got my wish to upgrade to the newest stuff I want to have in my panel, and GKEY is approaching her final stages of complete panel make-over, glass panel Aspen-and-Garmin style.

And you know what? They don't built 'em like they did with the 337's anymore. She is one sturdy beast, has enormous versatility and awesome flying characteristics only an in-line can offer, fly high or low, fast or slow (in fact, with the Robertson STOL during slow flight it feels like you can overtake her on a bicycle!), super-long distances, she loads like a truck and never moans, almost impossible to get out of C of G, she can handle G-forces like no other GA plane her size because of her O-2 heritage (this thing is built like a tank) and therefore make a canyon turn as tight as YOU are comfortable with.

And the aftermarket mods are vast. One of the best inital investments IMHO is the cargo pod, which can also double as a skid cusion in case of a gear-up landing, and thereby save your life, and keep the plane PERFECTLY intact with no engine tear-downs (if you do it right!).

Give me a 337 any day and I am as happy as a pig in mud.

[ipasgas1]

GKEY, I am a CRNA here in Ohio, I cover mainly OB. How does that work up there with your healthcare system? We may end up with a similar system down here, though I hope not. I have been following the threads on your and hharney's remodelings. It all sounds exciting. I think I have ruled out the Cirrus, I just have to convince my bank account that the 337 is the better, safer choice. Another option I have been investigating is a Rutan Defiant. I have no problem with experimental and they are a little better on fuel and maintenance costs. I would just have to find a nice one of those as they are few and far between. Aside from taking alot of runway, 3000ft, they sound like a good replacement?

[Roger]

I've owed a few different planes, from a 150 all the way up to a Navajo Panther, and now back to a 1980 H. They are all good, but when I got to a point where I didn't care (within reason how much it cost to buy, own or operate, I decided that the 337H (non pressurized, non-turbo (but booted) was the best plane on the planet.

I would not fly in a Cirrus, nor will my wife. I don't want to lible the aircraft in any way, but I believe a certain aviation writer who had something to do with radio navigation alluded to the fact that the Cirrus has the worst safety record of any aircraft ever produced. Of course there are all sorts of arguments as to why, like it is bought oftentimes by low hour pilots who get behind it's speed curve, etc..

But back to the skymaster, I will make one observation about the year because I have owned both a 1970, and now a 1980. The one significant difference (other than the door) is the fuel system. My 1980 has all fuel tanks (per wing) hooked together in a line with one large lower hose. This vs the 1970 which had seperate main and aux fuel tanks and associated mult-position selector, no pump on the aux, etc..

There is some evidence that if you took out 337 accidents that are fuel related accidents(ie.. planes that crashed with fuel in the tanks, but due to vapor lock and selector valve problems) as well as just plain old running out, that it is one of, if not the safest aricraft ever produced. In fact I often wondered why no one ever produced an STC to convert the tanks to a one fill/flow system on the old airplanes. I guess because if it doesn't happen to you, it isn't worth the expense.

As for turbo's, my Panther had them, and they were cool to get you high fast, but other than that (for east coast flying) they are a total waste of time, money, maintenance and heat.

If you want to talk about this in greated detail, just email me direct.

Good luck with whatever you get.

[ipasgas1]

I did find a nice P337, as well, for a decent price with low time engines, loaded with avionics and A/C for the same price as a T337 I liked. I just have not seen any NA 337's for sale with the same equipment. Is that because everyone is keeping theirs but T and P owners are trying to get out of them? How much more can I expect to pay for fuel and maintanence on a P model vs a normally aspirated (NA)? Also, how much more would I expect to pay for a P vs a T model? The owner of the P model said his insurance did not require yearly recurrent training, is this the norm? Also, would I be able to get insurance on a P model with only 30hrs in a 337 and 300hrs TT?
Thanks again,
Dan

[Roger]

I would think you would be best advised to talk directly to your insurance carrier about your insurance questions, as related to your hours. Otherwise you may make a decision based on bad information. Maybe you can apply for some Tarp money and get a deal on AIG insurance

As for P, T or NA. I think the real quesiton is, what do you want the plane to do. In other words if the T or P don't offer you anything you need (like high altitude cruising, for either long distance or mountain flying) then one would have to wonder what you would need the extra expense, maintenance and weight for.

My best freind has a new Mooney Ovation and he took off from Craig (jacksonville) 10 minutes after I took of from St. Augustine, and we both went direct to Key West. He cruises at 190Kts and I cruise at 155kts. He typically flys in the 10k area and I like 5k.

To make a long story short, they vectored him out wide for me to land ahead of him at KWY. So for a 325NM trip, we were within 10 minutes of each other, and he burned almost as much fuel.

So I believe that while it's cool to have the extra "stuff" I also believe that unless you need it, the extra stuff may cost you more in the end, than what it is worth. Again that's why I decided to sell my Turbo Navajo Panther and specifically looked for a non-pressurized, non-turbo 337. It seems to be the best plane for the money for the average east coast flyer (if you can find a good one at a good price).

And last but not least, becuase I don't get to fly a lot, I feel it is much easier to remain current in a non-complex twin like the NA 337.