Eventide-Argus 5000

[SkyKing]

Anybody have an Eventide-Argus 5000 or 7000 installed in their Skymaster?

I happened by the avionics shop earlier in the week and found a nice monochrome 5000 model. Was going to pass on it, but when we fired it up, it was that incredible display that sold me - it's sharper than any of the GPS screens I've seen to date, mainly because of the CRT with superb resolution. I mean, this screen is smaller than most hand-held GPS units, but 20 times sharper! Resolution is like 512 pixels to the vertical - the direction of travel for the moving map - and 256 pixels in the horizontal.

If any of you have KLN90, 90A or 90B... or any number of other units, including Lorans, this is the PERFECT match-up! Since I can't afford a Garmin 430, I figure I'll use my Loran set up in the interim until GPS panel mounts get more realistic, although $1K for a KLN90 series isn't too bad... And your right Bob (Cook), I think the KLN90B, even though its operating logic isn't supposed to be as 'user friendly' (I don't know how that came about, as you just have to get used to the operating system and nomenclature!) as the KLN89B, I much prefer the VERY SHARP green CRT display over that orange gas-discharge baloney.

Now, does anybody know if it takes any special adapters or mods to the King KI-525A HSI indicator to get heading information off of it and over to the Argus display?

Also just discovered that the Argus superimposes the ADF on its screen and it's FAA approved for ADF-NDB approaches... plus IFR certifiable depending on the equipment that's driving it, i.e., Loran or GPS.

Would be interested in hearing of any installation woes or experience with this really neat little box.

SkyKing

[Bob Cook]

Skyking

You need the midcontinent relay interface for the 525/90b to get the output of the 90b to the autopilot and the 525. you need this for certification as well. It is an ennunciator panel with pushbuttons. There is a 24 pole relay that switches the 525 inputs and flags from the radios to the gps.

The 90B should have a NEMA rs232 output that will feed the argus with heading, lat/long/ gnd speed, etc. Some are rs422 and others are 232 depending on age and mfgr.

The autopilot / 525 takes 400 hz sine/cosine input. This is available from the 90B. (main reason the 90b/525 combo was so popular). There is no heading bug feedback from the std 525 to the 90B or argus. There is a box that will interface from the 525 and feed the 400 series ap with "bug" input. You need the 400A flight director panel to do this (i believe).

Any output of the argus is going to be a NEMA 422. The argus must rely on its internal database and the nema input for position.

hope this helps

bob

[skymaster]

Howdy skyking:
my argus 5000 is still a cockpit mystery a technological doorstop . Bob's analysis makes me want to dig in and look . i have been wrong but never in doubt. for what its worth . my garmin 295 runs circles around the other directional devices. james henderson

[SkyKing]

Hi Bob.. and anyone else with/or contemplating an Argus display:

Don't have a KLN90B GPS unit just yet - still shopping price and serial #, but in the meantime I'm going to drive the Argus 5000 with the Apollo 618 Loran. BTW, funding for Loran systems was recently extended well beyong the year 2010, and it is a VERY viable alternative - money wise - to a panel installed GPS system.

Since the Argus gets all of its position information from the NAV system (whether it be Loran, GPS, etc.), there is a time delay in the successive position fixes of the ground track due to the fixes being filtered, so the aircraft's heading information isn't going to be instantaneous as far as the moving map is concerned... there's a delay and this is especially true with the Loran versus GPS.

Another thing to consider... the Apollo 612 Loran units are "VFR" only, and the Apollo 618 and the King KLN88 can approved for either VFR or IFR.

Also, I've now discovered that the II Morrow Apollo 612 and 618 Loran receivers only "talk" or process information in their outputs to the Argus at a 1200 baud rate, as compared to a 9600 baud rate with the KLN-88 Loran, so the King unit will process heading changes faster, but still not instantaneously. So, you still need to get heading info from the KI-525A to the Argus. I believe they call it "ARINC 407 output".

King manufactured the KI-525A "standard" HSI unit without the bootstrap and is P/N 068-3048-00 (the important part to note are those last two zeros, i.e. the dash- "00". Luckily, as it turns out, the KI-525A which I have installed is P/N 068-3048-01, the dash "01" indicating that it DOES have the bootstrap pickoff. So far so good.

An interesting 'factoid" I've discovered in thinking through the installation and making all this stuff work together, is that the Argus 5000 or 7000 is approved for use with an IFR approved LORAN C, GPS, NMS or other long-range nav system, BUT if the database has expired, the minimum range in all modes is limited to 2 nautical miles. Maybe they do this so there is incentive to keep up with purchasing the 56-day database updates! This is sort of like Xerox copiers... when the copy cartridge rolls up on 20,000 copies, a counter halts the process... although you're still good for another 40,000 copies from it if you know the 'game' plan. That's how 'they' keep you coming back to the trough!

Also, for those that weren't aware, none of the S-TEC autopilots require an A/P interface or 'coupler' in order to communicate with the King KCS55A system.

Right now it looks like hooking up the Argus with the Loran and the ADF will be fairly simple... but when I get ready to add the KLN90B, then, as you say Bob, the switcher has to be added and for "IFR" certified through the avionics shop... and this is where it starts getting expensive.... @ $70 an hour!

SkyKing

[Bob Cook]

SK

That's where things get expensive when you need to keep up the databases for all the products.
Keeping up the 90b database is not bad then use it as a reference. Also keeping up the echoflight is not bad including all the noaa charts.
When you start mixing units then things really get expensive.

This is an important consideration if you run around /G. Btw I need to go back and get a refresher course on the kns80 and ..... VOR. BTW I heard some take a Clearance vicor x to yyy, victor y to bbb. and on and on. What was that all about ?

Better yet I heard a clearance given to USAIR last week and he declined to accept a clearance since he was unable to go directly to a WP (intersection direct). Pilot said "you should know better we are a 737.........." Control said "guess there is no budget for an upgrade ? huh "... Some 172's are running around with better avionics than the airline. A captain friend on a 767 uses a 295 as a personal backup..

Bob

[Tony Giantonio]

Hi guys. we have a KLN90B and the Argus 7000 in our Bell 407 helicopter. I know we are talking apples and organges but as to performance they cant be beat. We did have the 89B but upgraded to the 90B. We typically fly vfr in the helicopter but its equipped with the storm scope and on occassion fly in very marginal weather he he. In my opinion the Argus 7000 is so easy to use and understand, if finances are willing, this is a great combination to use. In the skymaster it means less work load while IFR single pilot when hooked up to the autopilot. Thats what its all about. Especially in our helicopter while on approach without autopilot. I talked to the avionics guy and the hook up is realatively straight forward. Sorry if im being vague. So while flying i use the Argus as primary and 90b as secondary once all the trip info is input. They work great. Sure beats the days of one vor and one adf. I know you guys are on a more technical scale than I just wanted to share some info.

[SkyKing]

Well, there is a 'downside' to all this fancy "push-the-button" whiz-bang, "Gee, look at that!" equipment, and that's the proprietary interests of the manufacturer. And until you absorb all the technical doo-dads and understand the individual manufacturers electronic 'architecture' and how it interfaces with other stuff... a good deal could easily become a scary dream!

I just got off the phone with the nice lady at Argus, and for others contemplating buying and installing an earlier version of an Argus 5000 or 7000 monochrome unit, or the later 'enhanced' units in either monochrome green or color, here's the scoop:

Model numbers tell a lot. For example, the Argus 5000 I bought is a "5000-10-00". But if you were to buy a later Argus 7000, you might see this: "7000-20-15". What's it mean?

Of course, the 5000 or 7000 numbers denote whether it's the smaller panel mount in a regular three inch instrument hole, or the larger 4 and 3/4 inch tall clamp mount as in the 7000 model.
The middle numbers indicate the series of the units. For example, if you're looking at a model "5000-10-00" unit, the "10" means "old style standard monochrome" and the "00" means USA database. If, on the other hand, you're looking at a "7000-20-15", the "20" denotes 'Flight Planning Plus" software and the "15" denotes USA database. If the middle number were to be a "25", it would mean the unit is a later "enhanced" unit, and "30" would denote color. All of the color units are "enhanced".
Now, why is knowing all this important? I'm GLAD you asked!

In my case, I stumbled onto a an Argus 5000 for just under $400 bucks. Sounds good, right? Well, the database was last updated in 1993. Guess what? You cannot download a new database into the unit either through the front panel jack or from the internet. You have to purchase a new database 'card' and physically install it in the unit. The cost? $200 bucks for a one time update; $300 for two updates; and, $500 for 6 updates (the latter almost enough to cover a full year for $83.33 per update.) The updates are required if you're using it in an approved IFR setting..... and they come out every 56-days!!! WOW. And just guess what happens if you don't upgrade the database in an "IFR Approved" installation? The manual says, "...the minimum range in all modes will be limited to 2 nautical miles." Hhmmmm. What "IF" you're just going to use it for VFR as an aid to situational awareness? Seems to me if the Loran is supplying distance and track information that the display would indicate whatever the Loran is sensing. More research...

This applies to 5000 and 7000 models that have the "10" and "20" in their part numbers. But if you have the later 'enhanced' versions with "25" and "30" as the middle numbers, then the updates are half-the-price, because you can download the data through the internet and not have to replace a database card. Are we having 'fun' yet? WAIT! It gets better...

If you'd like to "upgrade" the older 5000 or 7000 monchrome units to the newer whiz-bang "enhanced" versions, dig deeper. The upgrade is $995 and involves changing out the CPU, which has to be done at the Eventide factory in New Jersey. And afterwards, YOU TOO can download from the internet at half-price!

If you're tired of looking at "green" you can GIVE Eventide your older dash-10 model 5000 monochrome unit and they'll send you a brand spanking new 5000CE COLOR unit with all the whidgets and a 2-year warranty for $3,500! Eventide calls it a "trade-in". Hhmmmm.

Manuals for the Dash-10 older 5000 and 7000 models are $20 bucks and the installation manual is $30 bucks. If the internal lithium battery has been drained of all its 'life', the unit will stop working, giving you a "Clock 5" failure indication... Eventide gets $59.95 for their battery and it must be soldered in by an FAA approved avionics shop. I wonder if Eventide's lithium battery has some 'proprietary' interests enduring to Eventide, like the Cessna cowl-flap motors? Oh... my, my.

Does anybody know what the NEDA number is on the battery for the Eentide-Argus 5000 and 7000? I'll bet it can be had from a regular electronic source, just like the Lithium battery in the Apollo units (which is a Keeper II Lithium Battery, Part # LTC-7P, with nominal ratings of 3.5 vdc @ 750 mAh. It has 4-prongs to solder into the board). Hey, maybe it's the same one for Eventide!
See what kind of absolutely earth shattering information you can get here on the SOAP board! Yep, I'm devoted to getting the most bang for the buck... and I'm sorry, but the 'middle man' has been screwing us for far too long!

Well, what else? If you're planning to use the Argus 5000/7000 with a King KLN-88 Loran, the manuals says this as a "Reminder: Approval for use of the Argus 5000 or Argus 7000 for IFR with an approved LORAN C, requires that it be connected to the aircraft's gyroscopic directional heading system for orientation and that the database be replaced every fifty six (56) days."

There may be other things here that I haven't been made 'aware' of yet, so this may be an unfolding story. Hope the info helps others to make intelligent decisions.

SkyKing

[Bob Cook]

SK

Question, which is the primary navigational tool? Loran/GPS or the Argus.

If you have the database installed ((current) for the 90B and it's output goes the the 525/hsi then the Argus is nothing more than a display! (assuming the 525 is driving the Argus)

If the Argus drives the 525 and is located between the gps and the 525 it becomes part of the "approved" system..

Hmmm All for situational awareness ? you mean you cannot figure out where you are ?

What does the Argus provide other than mapping ? I just don't get it. I am sure keeping up the database on the 90B is far cheaper thru the internet than keeping up the Eventide. Lakes, rivers don't change that much <G>

As long as you an an "approved" system, regardless of manufacture, does not limit you from having a zillion other displays in the cockpit (on the bridge) for comparative purposes.

Bottom line......... sometimes inexpensive is not cheap, and , sometimes you only think you need something when you really don't (I call it the 530 syndrome). Most airlines don't even have gps! Mapping is only two dimensional at the moment with color being the third dimension. Changes are coming.


BTW for100% of my /G navigation I use the 90B. For all approaches I use the 90B. It takes you to the IAF, FAF, and then to the MAP. A 295 will probably provide more situational awareness information than the argus and it also becomes a full blown backup when the lights go out.

I am sure the controller will help to keep you "out of the woods"

Decisions, decisions, decisions. Wait for 5 years and you can get a real buy on a 530. Never ends.

MMHO

Bob

[stackj]

I have been reading the posts relating to the Argus units with interest. It seems that I may have access to one at a very good price. The current owner calls it an "inheritance". (Sometimes flight instruction pays well).

Anyway, it appears that I may have to do some panel modifications to make a 7000 fit. Do any of you folks who have this model installed in your Skymaster have panel pictures that you would be willing to share on the message board? I love to look at some options.

[Kevin McDole]

Skyking,

I have the Argus 7000/KLN90B combo in my T210 and it works great. I don't know the details of installation - but you do need a bootstrap from the HSI to the Argus to keep the map direction oriented correctly. I also have the RMI/ADF feature - which is an add-on box on the back of the unit. For me, the primary benefit of the ADF, is that if you’re tight on panel space, this can replace the ADF.

I also had an Argus 5000/KLN88 in my 337 when I got it a couple of years ago, and that has since been replaced by a Garmin stack. My impression was the 5000 was kind of small. I was used to the 7000 display which is twice as big.

As you point out, there were several “levels” of enhancements to these products over the years – and the 5000 was made 1990 model. It operated differently (in small ways) than the later version Argus 7000.

Now that I’m hooked on Garmins, I still have only good things to say about the KLN90B and Argus combo. The KLN90B’s rap for being hard to learn is unjustified. It’s not as easy as a Garmin – but it really isn’t that hard. All GPSes have subtleties you MUST understand before you use them for approaches.

As to the database update issue – I have never heard anyone say that a current Argus database is required to be IFR legal. As Bob Cook points out, that since the Argus is not used for primary navigation – it’s database shouldn’t jeopardize your ability to go IFR. I personally only update the Argus about once per year, and the reason for these updates is because several MOA airspaces have changed and it is confusing to see a sectional that doesn't agree with the Argus. I do update the GPSes every 28 days.

[SkyKing]

Hey Kevinmcdo,

(Just so that 'Kevin' our webmaster won't think I'm addressing him!)... Do you have any panel pictures of your Argus 5000 and KLN88 set-up before you upgraded to the Garmin stack? I'd sure like to see them since we both have the same P-model year... which instrument hole did you mount the 5000 in? I haven't set-out to install the unit yet as I have to get the Lithium battery replaced and I'm still thinking about the layout as I want to piggyback the KLN88 with a KLN90B and arrange it so that either unit will feed the Argus 5000 and the KI-525A HSI. Is Mid-Continent the source for the switching arrangements, or are there some others for consideration?

SkyKing

[Bob Cook]

Skyking

The midcont interface is the only one that is APPROVED for the 90b and the 525. The issues are RAIM, arming and annunciator light status provided by the 90B and more important FAA approval.

I agree with kevin(mcdo) that the 90B is not as intuitive as the garmin, however, it is not lacking in database, approaces, or reliability. I sure like the altitude alert function. i use that all the time.

Another trick is anytime i am doing an approach or even a visual I set the GPS to OBS mode and the 525 command bars steer me to the runway and the distance shows to the MAP. Great for low viz days. Works like kns80 RNAV with no restrictions.

I honestly do not think a bw map is of much value after using the 295 or equiv. I think the installation is a lot of work when you can hang a map from the control colomn and use it for a backup for 1k$.

I could live with the 90B without anything else, however, going back to VOR navagation would be for the pits! Best investment was certifying the 90B for approachs and enroute.

http://www.mcico.com/MD41-300.pdf is the manual. The switching is different for the 89/94 and the 90B. You CANNOT HAVE BOTH.

fyi

bob

[Kevin McDole]

Skyking,

This is the best picture I have of my old panel. It's captured from a video tape, so the resolution is pretty low. This was an early Riley conversion and I've seen this Argus placement on many others. It is a good position for it to be installed (probably any place up or down on the right side of the pilot's panel would be good).

[SkyKing]

Kevinmcdo,

Is your 7000 a monochromer or color unit... I see you have the RMI attached... How much for the RMI adapter for these Argus units?

SkyKing

[Kevin McDole]

The picture I posted was the Argus 5000. The 7000 I have in my 210 is monochrome. A friend had the 700CE in his Mooney and was very excited about how color decluttered the screen.

My 7000 was installed around 7 or 8 years ago and I don't really remember the cost of the RMI, but I will take a wild guess and say it was probably something like $1,500.

In case you haven't already seen this, here's the Argus website:

http://www.eventide.com/argus/argpage.htm