Should i Install The Aviation Enterprises Wing Lets
 

I am completing my dream Sky Master 337 ;Pressurised model and in process of purchase, spotted out 3 planes ,two are in Europe and one In USA,All are ;H; model
My mission consists of 550 nm Trips over Apls with MEA of 16000 ft and in winter have lot of icing conditions, and as we know SkyMasters are not FIKI, I was thinking Winglets , are good choice as they will enhance my climb rate( as per claim) and let me climb faster if i encounter ice on the way up?i have no other wing extensions mods, standard 148 G tanks, was told by one of very respectful name and SkyMaster expert.. to stay away from them?
pls guide and advise, you guys can write me on skywalkerbellagio@gmail.com
or give opinion in this forum, thanks and blue skies
Dennis
Poznan
Poland

Hi Dennis, use of the search function on this forum and a little on google help a lot with these older planes. In your case the plane sounds perfect how it is if it is booted for the occasional ice encounters.

Brent

Wing lets
 

Thanx Brent , for the feed back ;-))

Dennis the BEST possible advice is to buy a plane first and fly it for at least a year before you modify. Doesn't matter how detailed your prebuy inspection, the first year of owning a plane is always a challenge.

Work out all the bugs, learn the plane...then decide if you need mods.

Sky Master Mods
 

John
this is great advise indeed, i studied all related posts, /threads from 2002 till 2017 which could help me to understand this plane, and know about the nuances, problems, maintenance issue, operating techniques etc , made lot of notes , and came to the conclusion.that ;Intercoolers and Speed Brakes/Spoiler; are must have
its not about ;if i plan my descends well ahead, i do not need spoilers, main purpose for spoilers would be to descend fast thru icing .My business trips will be Poznan- Milan( Malpensa) and even in summer over Alps we do encounter icing ;-(((
yes wing lets, and STOL mods may be just cosmetics, and nothing else
By the way ,already bought the inter coolers:)
Dennis

Dennis, my experience with deiced Skymasters in icing is they don't do very well. They don't climb all that well clean, and the rate of climb really falls off with any ice accumulation. They also loose a lot of speed with ice due to ice accumulation on all the surfaces that aren't booted like the vertical tails and struts. The engines run hot too due to the ice accumulations around the cooling air inlets. All in all, a bad deal. The boots loose effectiveness the higher you climb too, and really didn't shed ice well in the mid to high teens. I went through three winters in the Pacific Northwest in a booted P Skymaster with full deice, wouldn't do that again. No Skymaster is approved for flight in known icing, and from my experience, for good reason. If you are seriously considering flying in icing, I would look for a plane with much better climb capability that has been tested and approved for flight in icing conditions.

SkyMaster and icing condition
 

Hello Jeff
thanks for the very valuable info, i have been so much excited that i have found the most safest piston twin in the world, but icing capabilities and your experience really giving me second thoughts, i have been; so much inspired and ;fixed; on the idea of Skymaster owner ship ;-(((((
of course i will always try to avoid FIKI; Even i had the plane equipped with FIKI with piston engines, but do you think it is hard to escape and too dangerous. if i encounter icing during my flight in a Skymater P337?

I live in the PNW, currently have an N/A Skymaster, and I've been dreaming the dream of a booted P, not because I want to go screaming into icing, but for the same principle as a condom. I'd rather have the boots and not need them/use them.

After you sold your P, what kind of machine did you go to?



Leighton

Escape would depend on how you are doing it and what the conditions are. If you are descending through a layer, and the air temperature below is above freezing a few thousand feet above the ground and you loose the accumulated ice before landing, you might be OK. If the freezing air extends all the way to the ground, that would be a problem as you will be a test pilot landing an iced up airframe in a condition it has not been tested for. A FIKI airplane would be tested with known behavior and stated increased speeds to fly. As to climbing to on top conditions, this is more problematic. You will find that the worst icing in clouds is at the top of the clouds. The Skymaster isn't a very good climber even with no ice accumulation. The climb rate really takes a hit as ice accumulates, and the accumulation rate increases the closer to the tops you get. All the while the engine cooling is getting worse as ice accumulates on the cooling inlets and the engines are running hotter just at the point you need maximum power to preserve your decreasing climb rate. I think you can see where this might not end well. Now this is true of all aircraft to some degree, but one with better climb capability and better ice shedding on more of its surfaces will do better than a Skymaster. If the icing layer is known to not be too deep or too severe, you might be able to climb through it, but you have to ask, what is your life worth? Any light aircraft versus icing can be problematic, the advantage of a FIKI aircraft is that it has been tested and this gives you some guidance as to what the performance will be and what you can expect. It is no guarantee you can outclimb ice, or land safely if you accumulate too much on unprotected surfaces. If you are going to fly in icing in light planes, do it with full knowledge of the risks, and have solid gold outs. If you don't have a plan B you can be sure you can carry out, use plan C, put the ice in a nice cold drink at your home.

1983 FIKI P210. The 1983 P210 had an improved deicing setup from earlier 210s. It has 2 vacuum pumps, both plumbed into the deicing boots, so it has twice the air supply of earlier models which results in more effective shedding of ice. Unlike the P337 where all the deicing boots inflate at once, the P210 setup is cycled with the inner wings inflating, followed by the outer wings and finally the tail boots. This results in snappier boot inflation and better ice shedding as well. The P210 doesn't have wing struts, and the vertical tail is booted, so less of the airframe is unprotected. All of this results in much less performance loss in the P210 vs the P337 in icing. The ceiling of the P210 is FL230 vs FL200 for the P337 which made the difference between in the tops versus on top on quite a few occasions. The P210 is also legal to fly in icing conditions, if that matters. That said, I still won't just launch into icing conditions, on days like today (12/24) for example. If the freezing level goes all the way to the ground, that is a no go. If I can't be assured of being able to climb to non icing altitudes, I won't fly. Also, if there are reports of moderate or worse icing in the area, I would think twice about launching. The P210 is a light plane, and any light plane and icing should give one pause. Don't get me wrong, I loved my P337, and miss it at night, over the Cascades and in IFR conditions, but the P210 handles ice better, and it is less expensive to fly. It can carry more with full fuel, and since I have a 29 gallon aux tank, it has better range which can matter in icing since you may be flying at slower speeds with ice on unprotected surfaces. The performance of the aircraft is essentially the same too. Where in the PNW are you, I am based at KHIO.

I am just above the boarder from you, in The Great White North eh.
I've spent a lot of time working in and around your area, mostly in helicopters.

My boss just sold his P210N (previously based at S03), absolutely beautiful airplane - and I think he still sobs when he looks at pics. Kinda neat to compare the fuel burn / running costs between his 210 and my 337. Of course, he had me trumped with the pressurisation.

Leighton.

SkyMaster Deicing capabilities
 

Alex
i have great dilemma now ;-((((
and looking at C340
or C414A ( Less complicated fuel system and bonded wing), as you said how much worth is your life and health , it made me thinking once again, my typical flying will be over hostile terrains, and in this part of Europe we have lot of IFR weather.
But i was never fan of traditional twin pistons ,due to asymetric thrust issues,
Best aircraft would be Turbine, but i can afford them ;-(((
what would you advise?
P210 is out of question .
Mary Christmas to all SOAPA members

Name spelloing mistake;-((
 

Jeff
sorry misspelled you name ,wrote Alex instead of AXEL

I can see where a P210 isn't your choice, and it wasn't a recommendation, just what I chose. If I had the desire and need to fly over hostile terrain in winter, and operating expenses were not a limitation, I would recommend turbine equipment. Much more reliable engines and systems, and much better climb rate. If you can't get into a turboprop, any FIKI piston twin would be a better choice than a P337 in my opinion. The C414A has among the lowest accident rates of the pressurized piston twins and wouldn't be a bad choice, especially with RAM engines with higher horsepower and better climb rates than the stock airplane. Good luck on whatever you choose, and Merry Christmas!

There are SO many factors to look at when deciding upon an aircraft that we can’t even scratch the surface of them here. The later P210 model is a beautiful example of a pressurized FIKI single but I like the engine out rate of climb better in the Skymaster. The 414A is a phenomenal twin but you will need a boatload of multi time to get affordable insurance.

Any pressurized airplane will be expensive to insure, including the P337. I wasn't recommending the P210 for this OP, just saying what I did since someone asked. If I was in his situation, I would try really hard to find a way to make turbine equipment work. My guess is the one engine out climb rate in most piston twins with accumulated ice would be near zero, and possibly negative. I am just trying to add some factors for the OP consider based on my experience. The P337 would not be a good choice for his proposed mission based on that experience. I went down the P337 road, didn't work for me in the part of the world I live in. He is saying his environment is similar. Others may and can choose differently.

The 340 is a great plane for the mission you describe. I put about 200-250 hrs/yr on mine. It has a higher capital cost but similar ongoing maintenance costs to a tricked out P337. Fuel burn is higher for slightly more speed and a *lot* more payload and cabin space.

I fly in ice and in the mountains on a regular basis and the ability to climb through lower layers at 1500ft/min or more is a great asset. My MEAs are lower than yours so I stay under the high icing layers in the spring and fall.

Single engine work in the 340 isn't bad. With VGs and strakes installed, I'm never in the air at speeds below Vmc. Insurance is available for a very low time multi pilot if you bring along an instructor for your first few hours (it's a good idea even without the insurance requirement.)

Note that only the 1977 and later model 340s are FIKI.

PM me for more info on the 340.

Cessna 340 vs SkyMaster
 

Hello Jim C
pls give me your mail or pls mail me at skywalkerbellagio@gmail.com
to discuss C340 i am highly intrested
thanks
Dennis

P337g
 

I have a 1975 P337G with boots. I owned this plane for 20 years and while I agree that it is not rated for known icing, the deice equipment got me out of trouble several times. The plane itself will fly quite well with a load of ice on it. But that is something you do not want to look to do. If you can find a good P model with deice equipment, don't be afraid of it. As for winglets go, I don't recommend them. Herb had them on his plane and took them off. That is another subject and you should contact Herb regarding them. In addition to the deice equipment on my plane, I also have engine inter coolers that produces a bit more power from the engines.

Good plane hunting!
Jerry N34EC.

Hi Jerry
its good to hear your opinion, i would really apreciate ,if other operators /owners of P337 Can guide and advise me In my purchase,as you guys know .these planes are hard to sell and have very low resale value ;-(( and would really like to make;well informed purchase;
Wing lets are out of equation, i will just put the Horton and VG.
and i also think, intercoolers are must for high altitudes flying.
Regards
Dennis