182 to 337 transition; wise?
 

I have about 600 hrs. (IFR cert.) in my own '79 182Q (1600 TT) and am possibly interested in moving to a 337 (my wife doesn't know it, yet - so this may be a dead deal already). We live in Colorado - no mountain flying, but frequent Kansas City (550 miles), Wyoming, and New Mexico (1000 miles longest trip). What about a 337 -- or is this "muddy" thinking? Can you refer me to 337 owners in Colorado, Nebraska, and Kansas that might be able to help me in this decision process? Thanks.

I got my private on a 172 and immediately bought a 337. Took my multi-engine training on the 337 and did not find a huge difference. I think the transition is straightforward. Yes, you're going faster (so you need to plan a little earlier) and yes there is props and gear to worry about, but I found it easy. Maybe others will share their view.

Ernie

I bought my first Skymaster in 1975 shortly after I got my commercial license and my multi-engine rating in an old Piper Apache. I sold my Bellanca Super Viking and had no problem with the insurance. I had about 350 hours at the time. It was an easy transition and that Skymaster didn't even have an autopilot. It was a 1973 337G, N1873M. Anyone on this forum own that one now?

I say go for the 337. I compare it mostly to flying a Cessna 182 but with two engines and the control forces are actually lighter than on a Cessna 210.

I was a low time single engine pilot when I bought my Skymaster ( <150 hrs). It was an easy transition. The biggest difference will be speeds. My neighbor has a 182, and I rode with him, one day. I was very concerned when we turned base, to final, and watched the Air Speed indicator on the south side of 80. I fly base at 110.

The gear will be different, but you already are comfortable with a constant speed prop. The speeds are the big difference.

You will need a ME rating. There are several people who have done it in the Skymaster. I chose to go to a 'school', in TX, and got it out of the way. Insurance will require the ME.

You can perform a search, looking for the states you mentioned.
I looked, and the user brucehandley, is in colorado. docbob and Skymaster337B are in New Mexico.

You can search on those usernames. When you find them, you can send them an email.

Thanks Larry. The FAA list the following information on N1873M but I just thought the owner may be on this forum.

N-number Database Search Result

Last Database Update: Mon Apr 9 15:58:06 2007

N-number N1873M
Aircraft Serial Number 33701473
Aircraft Manufacturer CESSNA 337G
Model
Engine Manufacturer CONT MOTOR
Model IO-360 SER
Aircraft Year 1973
Owner Name ASMUS EDWARD W III
Owner Address 547A MALLARD LNRD
SUGAR GROVE, IL, 60554
Type of Owner Co-ownership
Registration Date 25-Nov-2002
Airworthiness Certificate Type Standard
Approved Operations Normal

Sergeant Major,

That individual has registered, and I think somehow he got lost in the transition, or someplace, because he was still listed as someone who had not completed the registration process.
I have emailed him, and told him he is now a member.

It is an unfortunate thing.

To me, moving up to a 337 was a natural progression. First I had a cherokee 140 (way underpowered) then a comanche 250 (solid
single) BUT the whole time you are flying a single you must look out for that place to sit down! I bought my first 337 with no twin rating and only 500 hours. The single-engine training on the 337 is a piece of cake....(shut down a engine and feather,unfeather and restart when ready) The 337 is the first plane that I actually feel safe and comfortable flying...I recently bought a 74 P ,so my 67 Turbo B model is for sale. I do fly by Sterling (On the way to the inlaws) So if you want, I can stop in and show you how easy the" Master of the Sky" is to fly. I can sum up flying a 337 in only 3 words.....PIECE OF MIND. Jim 303-503-6220

One suggestion getting your ME, take your training and check ride in a side by side. This will allow all the time you log in the Skymaster as normal, unlimited ME time. I took my training and check ride in a Skymaster only and cannot legally claim any of my 337 time as normal ME time.

Very nice offer Jim.

>>>>I took my training and check ride in a Skymaster only and cannot legally claim any of my 337 time as normal ME time.<<<<

uh, pardon me, but as far as i know, there is no difference in logging ME time.

see FAR 1.1

Yes, I do have a center-line thrust limitation on my ME rating..I could not care less..I have no desire to fly a single or conventional twin! (Not even in the pattern). Alot of TV coverage was given here in Denver a few years back over a mid-air collision over downtown...but not much was said when 2 weeks later a single took off from around here with 4 folks and had engine trouble over moab Ut.. Once you get used to having that rear engine back there helping keep your *** up in the air, you will not feel safe in any other bird...

Fundamentally, there are two (2) ways to get your ME rating. In your plane, and in someone else's plane. I chose the someone else's plane route, and got a conventional ME rating.

There are plusses and minus's. One the plus side for me, my insurance company required ME rating. There was never a plane unavailable issue, the instructors were top notch, and always available. It was a compacted course, over 4-5 days, so it was focused on learning to fly ME. There were no lapses because my last flight was last week. There was no wear and tear on my plane. I thought, and still do, it was the best scenario.

Someone I know did it in their plane, and it took a long time to get the rating, interrupted by having to get a turbo rebuilt. Then there was the issue of trying to find a DPE that could do the checkride in a CLT airplane. The plus to it is that all the time is spent gaining familiarity in the plane you will fly.

Which ever way you go, having a skymaster lends a great deal of comfort to all operations. Oh, and when you have to shut down an engine, it really is a non-event.

Yeah, Larry, but what about the point made by Herb Harney (that 337 time does not count as conventional ME time if your check ride was in a Skymaster) and Tropical's assertion that it does count? Who's right? Anybody know? Herb's point came as a surprise to me, since I thought it did count, but I don't know.

Ernie

I'm not sure what the FAA says about this but I do remember that many of the ex-military pilots who flew fighters received a single-line thrust FAA license even though the jets they flew had two engines but were located together so as to be more or less single line thrust. It was my understanding that if one had a conventional multi-engine rating they could count all multi-engine time in either type, conventional twins or Skymasters, but if they had only a center-line thrust rating they could only count as multi-engine time that flown in a center-line thrust airplane (skymasters). I may be wrong on this but that is my recollection from my days as an FBO many years ago. It may have even had something to do with the insurance requirements but I can't remember anymore. I also remember one instance wherein a former Air Force Pilot who flew C-54s and later C-130s with thousands of hours wanted to become a flight instructor but before he could do so he had to obtain a single-engine rating. Until he took the check ride with a designated examiner he was treated as a student pilot in singles and could not carry passengers. Of course, he didn't have to go through the 40 hours of training - just to proficiency and then got a single-engine addition to his multi-engine Commercial rating.

A Skymaster is a multi-engined airplane. You must have a mutli engine rating to log the time. There is nothing written about a center line thrust limitation there.

If the aiplane had more than one throttle, the time goes in the many motored column.

The airplane still has the limitations of single engine flight that a conventional multi engined aircraft has except for Vmc issues. And it has procedures unique to the type design too. For instance, in a C-310, if you lose an engine after take off, you clean it up by raising the gear and flaps. You best not do that in a 337.

It counts as ME-CLT. In fact, I took my Instrument ride in my Skymaster, and they wanted to give me an Instrument-CLT rating. Because I have a conventional ME rating, I ended up with a conventional ME-Instrument. It's all moot if you are only ever going to fly a 337. However, if you have a friend with a twin commanche, or a 310 or a twin commander, if you are CLT, you can not take the controls (I left out 421's, because that requires a high altitude endorsement).

Maybe I am totally off tract here, so pardon me if that's the case. I currently only have a sinlge engine fixed gear, fixed prop land rating (for my Cessna 172 N).

Then I bought the 337. My insurance company stated that I had to fly 25 hours with my CFI to do the conversion to retract gear, variable prop settings and multi engine (in the 337). Bear in mind, I told them I was not interested in conventional twins at this time, I only want to fly my 337. After I have completed the 25 hours duo with my CFI, I have to fly my checkride in the 337.

That's it. That's all. They're happy. I'm happy. I realize I can not fly a conventional twin with this rating, but who cares? I love my 337.

Larry, we know we can't fly a conventional multi-engine airplane with a multi-engine CLT-only license. That's not the issue. The question is this: if you have a multi-engine CLT-only license, do you count your time piloting a 337 as ME time for purposes of a) airline jobs, and b) logging it in your log book. I think the log book issue is clear, you do log it as ME time. But say you have 300 hrs on a 337, then get a full ME license and have 700 hrs on a conventional twin, and then apply for an airline job. Do you have 1000 hrs ME or 700 hrs ME?

Ernie

Ernie, I asked that very same question to my insurance company (for future logging purposes). They had no problem with adding the time in a Skymaster to total ME time, they only wanted the times specified to each plane. Basically, as someone said already, 2 throttles = 2 engines.

I suspect though, that many companies will have their own interpretation of this rule, so maybe it should be best to contact one's own insurance company directly, and get the answer straight from the horse's mouth.

The rules might be different from Canada to the US. I have a type rating on my licence. ( C337 inline type endorsment) I can fly a single and a 337 , Twin rating is a seperate licence.

Frank

Boy, I guess I really opened the can and the worms came out. I am not positive of this but here is how I understand it.

The log book time is ME. Period. The license is ME - CLT. I am not leagal to fly a conventional twin. I have to fly 25 hours with an instructor and ride with an examiner to have the CLT limitation removed from my license. As far as the time logged it's ME. I do not distinguish it as ME - CLT just ME.

Earnie, your question should be answered with 1,000 hours ME.

What I was suggesting was that you should take your initial training for ME in a conventional twin so that you have a standard ME license. I love my Skymaster but I also love airplanes that have other configurations. I just think it's better to get the full rating.

At one time the FAA was going to pull the CLT rating. Then the only choice would be a standard ME which a Skymaster would not qualify for the training aircraft.

That's just my interpitation but I could be wrong.

I think everyone is right in a way re mulit logging.There was a time in the 80s that the CLT rating wasnt available. Just before I took delivery of my 337 in December 1998 I heard that the CLT was coming back and made inquiries thru the local FAA office. They dug up the info and sure enough it would be available to me - even found an examiner that could do the CLT but it was clear that if I did the CLT then I would log CLT hrs. only. I decided to skip the fuss and just get a multi. at a school in their plane. Glad I did it that way, got it out of the way in a weekend and have been logging multi. hrs since. It was a good learning experience, got to learn how to declare an emergency when the critical engine that was shut down for the checkride demo wouldnt restart in the air.

You have 1000 hours of multi engine time.

Good point, John. I favor, always, doing the ME training in someone else's airplane, in a structured enviroment, so you get it out of the way. I know someone who did the CLT thing, but it took him months to get the training, and quite some difficulty in finding a DPE.

One other thing to consider, is the commercial license. If you ever intend to pursue a commercial ME license, there is no such thing as Commerical ME-CLT.

my two cents worth.

I had been out of flying for a few years (12 to be exact) when I decided to return to flying. Up to that point I had flown a variety of aircraft, of which 400 hours was in retractable complex singles.

I wanted a simple, straight forward, safe multi and after flying a Seneca II doing single engine work at less than 200 fpm climb on the missed on a warm day, decided that was not for me.

Did some more research and figured the 337 was the best and not unreasonable in terms of complexity for me, even if I was not flying it regularily.

I found my FT337GP and returned to flying using it to train in. A bit of a step, but it was similar to 182's and 210's from the past, just heavier, faster and a little more complex. Pretty easy to fly all in all and single engine requires little effort and no sweat at all.

So in answer to the original question in this thread, moving from a 172 to a 337 is not a big step. You would make a similar step moving to a 210 or any training multi-engine aircraft. I would advise you get good training for the transition. If you can find an instructor with 337 experience, all the better.

As to licences, I did not have an FAA license (and my Canadian ones had lapsed) so I did my FAA private ride in the 337. The DPE had to get clearance for the ride and my licence was then private, multi-engine land, center line thrust restricted.

I then went to Florida and trained for my IR in 172's. Along the way did the SEL ride which the DPE wanted me to have before he would do the IR ride in the 172. My license was then SEL, MEL CLT restricted, Intrument Airplane, ME restricted to VFR only

I then did some time in a Duchess, training for the ME-IR. The DPE had to get permission again regarding the removal of the CLT restriction, but on that ride, I was given the ME-IR and had the CLT restriction removed. The license then read SEL & MEL, Instrument airplane.

In respect to the other questions on the thread, you can do the MEL ride in the 337 provided the DPE gets clearance from his FSDO. The license will be MEL, CLT restricted.

A MEL-IR would also be CLT resticted until you do the required upgrades per the practical test standards. That is mostly a VMC demo and demonstrating control while single engine and an approach and landing. That is only if you wanted to remove that restriction. I got that for free because of what I was training in.

I also think it is a good idea to fly a variety of multi-engine planes so you can appreciate how much nicer and simple the 337 is to fly in comparison.

Regards - Dave